D&D: What it really is

[Eos]

I've always been amused by this idea that D&D is supposed to be some sort of generic all-encompassing fantasy game. It's really not, and I think has never been. D&D is the pulp and superhero version of fantasy. It's guys who can punch out dragons, and there's nothing wrong with that. Wizards needs to just admit it and stop trying to make it into Fantasy GURPS. The system is at it's best when your characters can literally eat lightning and crap thunder. 4th Edition is really the ultimate expression of genericness. I suppose I understand, they're trying to reach the broadest audience. But that is really robbing D&D of it's uniqueness and character, and that's essential to a good intellectual property as well, even from a business point of view.

D&D doesn't actually have that much influence from Tolkien, by the way. Basically they took some monsters and races and that's about it. The general attitude and tone is more like Fritz Leiber's Lankhmar stories, Jack Vance's Dying Earth and Lyonesse stories, Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion stories and many other examples of pulpy 60s and 70s fantasy and "New Wave" science fiction.

[Dalton]

WOTC rapes good things and craps out wishy-washy products meant to suck up the money of foolish people like a ZORBEEZ miracle towel from Billy Mays, call in the next thirty seconds and I'll throw in OXYCLEAN! But that's not all, call right now and I'll double your ZORBEEZ!

[Eos]

Thanks for the Billy Mays jokes but I really want to stress that this is not so much about whatever Wizards have done so much as it is about the perception of a lot of the people who play D&D

[Soja]

WotC has basically stripped down all that was good about D&D and slapped the 4th Edition label on it.

I love the part where they tried to equate magic and martial classes, thereby robbing the classes of any real differentiation and a point in even having classes to begin with.

[Dalton]

3rd had no point in different classes either. The only real way to play a character was to buy all of the expansion books to get every obscure feat and PrC you need to achieve a blasphemous amalgamation of classes capable of every form of combat and magic and able to defeat any foe.

Why be a level 20 fighter when you can be three levels in six and a half different uber-twink classes that form together to get you BETTER stats than a level 20 fighter, AND bonuses fighters would never dream of?

Of course to have access to all of this power you must buy more books.

Therein lies the problem with Wizards of the Coast. They take everything (including D&D, a ROLE PLAYING GAME) and turn it into a "you win or you lose" game where in order to be "strong" and "win the game" you must pay real money to get better characters. It's the same thing with Magic: The Gathering where you constantly need to buy more card expansions because they always get stronger and stronger and old cards get oudated. The few old cards that are any good are "officially banned from tournaments" as a cheap cop-out to force you to buy new cards that do pretty much the same thing but require spending that additional money.

[Xachariah]

Your Only Real Way thing... just makes me make a terrible face. You DON'T have to get the books, or use these weird-ass PrCs and feats. Also, your DM shouldn't throw undefeatable monsters at you. Except for the Tarrasque, if your DM feels like being a dick or your party just refuses to go anywhere near the actual story and pisses him/her off. And even the Tarrasque is killable, with enough time and effort; it's just that you'll be far more tempted to run like a little bitch to avoid being eaten by OMFGWTFMONSTAH.

That said, yeah, Wizards wants to make money. Duh. Wouldn't you, in their situation? You might look at it from where you are and go "Shit, that's horrid." but if you were looking at it from their perspective, you might go "Wow. Okay, we need more ideas for cards, so we can make more money and not go bankrupt because everybody already HAS the cards." Besides, maybe the newer cards are better balanced for the newer cardsets they're up against.

So... yeah, Wizards wants money, no shit. Why does this still surprise people?

[Eos]

fuck you all for turning this thread into something it isn't

[Ytts]

D&D doesn't actually have that much influence from Tolkien, by the way. Basically they took some monsters and races and that's about it. The general attitude and tone is more like Fritz Leiber's Lankhmar stories, Jack Vance's Dying Earth and Lyonesse stories, Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion stories and many other examples of pulpy 60s and 70s fantasy and "New Wave" science fiction.

Pretty much, and it isn't like this is a very great and terrible secret. "Vecna," is just a deliberate anagram of Jack Vance's name. The whole D&D magic system is what they'd call a "Vancian" system.

I would probably say that D&D does not occupy even the same sort of area that Tolkien had, anymore. D&D elves? Those are definitely not the elves of Middle Earth.


It's sort of amusing to see that the younger audience, having played D&D and read (or watched) Tolkien's works naturally assume it's a direct connection not realizing there is an entire generation of literature (several, in fact) that occurred between the time of Tolkien's books and D&D.

[Ytts]

D&D is the pulp and superhero version of fantasy. It's guys who can punch out dragons, and there's nothing wrong with that.

I would disagree here, saying there was a period of time when D&D was more about getting killed, over and over and over again, and if not killed, then spending a year and a half at the same character level, because that's how quickly you're advancing. AD&D anyone.

But yes, that is how it is now. That is the nature of the high fantasy genre these days.

[Bane]

then spending a year and a half at the same character level, because that's how quickly you're advancing.

what

[Eos]

D&D doesn't actually have that much influence from Tolkien, by the way. Basically they took some monsters and races and that's about it. The general attitude and tone is more like Fritz Leiber's Lankhmar stories, Jack Vance's Dying Earth and Lyonesse stories, Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion stories and many other examples of pulpy 60s and 70s fantasy and "New Wave" science fiction.

Pretty much, and it isn't like this is a very great and terrible secret. "Vecna," is just a deliberate anagram of Jack Vance's name. The whole D&D magic system is what they'd call a "Vancian" system.

I would probably say that D&D does not occupy even the same sort of area that Tolkien had, anymore. D&D elves? Those are definitely not the elves of Middle Earth.


It's sort of amusing to see that the younger audience, having played D&D and read (or watched) Tolkien's works naturally assume it's a direct connection not realizing there is an entire generation of literature (several, in fact) that occurred between the time of Tolkien's books and D&D.

I guess it's the younger audience that I am talking about because when I was a kid, D&D was basically sold to me as Tolkien-lite. Then again, ALL fantasy was sold to me that way. It's hard to get out of Tolkien's shadow if you're writing fantasy, much the same way that it's hard to get out of Shakespeare's shadow if you're an English playwright or Melville's shadow if you write a novel about whaling.

It's just retarded to me to see all these people perceive D&D as the place to talke ye olde englishe and save princesses, and it's kind of sad that Wizards is trying to cater to everybody with the game, instead of preserving the unique flavour that D&D has. D&D really BECOMES that superhero fantasy game I talk about instead of starting out like that. What really links the two is that D&D has, or at least had, a great shared universe feel, where there was something interesting and weird behind every corner, at all levels, like DC and Marvel. Don't like Superman, or in D&D's case, Drizzt and Elminster? That's great, we have Starman and Batman and Vertigo and the Moonsea or Planescape for you.

And as for literature, hell there is some stuff from before and during Tolkien's time that applies here, like Lord Dunsany and The Worm Ouroboros by E.R. Eddison.

[SixStringSamurai]

I had a hard time looking at the new D&D material without thinking of it in terms of World of Warcraft. This made me feel very dirty.

I get wanting to draw in new players, younger kids, people used to faster action in this electronic gaming culture, but...Dunno, it lacks some of the charm of the old sets.

Of course, they need to make money and I need to feel nostalgic, so there you have it.

[Ytts]

I had a hard time looking at the new D&D material without thinking of it in terms of World of Warcraft. This made me feel very dirty.

I had a hard time looking at the new D&D 4 edition without thinking it was put together by someone just out of a community college course in video game design.

"Tanks," "Buffers," "Controllers," ? It's sort of obvious they are cribbing from City of Heroes and other video games to get a class system that they can use in their paper based product? Sorry, but just because something works in a video game, does not mean it is a good idea for Pen & Paper.

I half expect to see further material to read like a poorly written, unedited college thesis filled up with impenetrable jargon like "And your level 2 shadow spell is a mid level DPS based on DoTS AoE vs MP in the Controller class with ST reduction OT for MT without save except MBT. Here's the algorithm you'll need to recursively apply to every XPO/lv target you hit and here is the modeling curve to generate the geometric shape template you'll need to determine *which* creatures your AoE hits, once you decipher it by running it through your toaster."


Getting the toaster to print out complex schematics is probably going to be the easiest part of that.

[Xachariah]

Cream cheese, the new computer language.

[Elijah]

Rifts was awesome. You could really crap some thunder in that game.

[Xachariah]

Crap... thunder... ? O _ o

[Soja]

Aye! I saw him!

'E could shoot balls of flame from 'is eyes, and lightning from 'is arse!

[Elijah]

Something I ate. =p

[Xachariah]

Whatever you ate, it made you William Wallace!

[Gyrit]

Heh, Michael Moorcock....what were we talking about?

[Eos]

Rifts was awesome. You could really crap some thunder in that game.

Rifts is basically what happens when an author gets acute ADD and can't decide on one genre, so he decides to USE THEM ALL. Unlike Shadowrun which is genre blending with a clear purpose and theme, Rifts is just throwing in the kitchen sink and going with it. Giant robots punching out dragons made out of pure magic who are the avatars of the Norse gods while superheroes from another dimension fight Cthulhu.

[Elijah]

Rifts was awesome. You could really crap some thunder in that game.

Rifts is basically what happens when an author gets acute ADD and can't decide on one genre, so he decides to USE THEM ALL. Unlike Shadowrun which is genre blending with a clear purpose and theme, Rifts is just throwing in the kitchen sink and going with it. Giant robots punching out dragons made out of pure magic who are the avatars of the Norse gods while superheroes from another dimension fight Cthulhu.

Giant robots and Cthulhu in the same RP. I'm down!

[Eos]

Unfortunately it has the world's shittiest, densest and most badly organized rule system, and Kevin Siembieda thinks he's better than everyone else, so he refused to even think about doing a d20 version back when that was possible. That would have sold like crazy.

[SixStringSamurai]

Unfortunately it has the world's shittiest, densest and most badly organized rule system, and Kevin Siembieda thinks he's better than everyone else, so he refused to even think about doing a d20 version back when that was possible. That would have sold like crazy.

FATAL.

[Dalton]

Oh heavens, FATAL... was that the one that you had to roll for everything, including penis size and the ability to urinate?