A formal apology.

[Id]

Come on, Dev.   You shouldn't say that not-too-subtle hint, if you were gonna offer her anonymity in the first place by removing the name from the logs. To be honest, I don't know who's right or wrong in your AG situation (I'm guessing nobody), but I can relate to your position a lot because I have been one of those people who called shit out in a different community long ago, and what I learned there is that you cannot expect, and should not expect, other people to be as passionate and public with it as you, regardless of whether they privately agree. I know it sucks and it may not be morally right, but you gotta face the facts: if you can't stand on your own two feet, then don't stand up in the first place. You should take the private support for what it is, and don't abuse it.

[Devin`Asures]

Glad you caught my HIDDEN IMPLICATIONS there, Id. Dun dun dun!

People not being public and passionate about their opinions is what caused the shit in the AG in the first place. When I left there, people assured me that was changing and that they'd all learned from the big drama blow up, but nooo!
I'm sick of these people whining to me in private about the latest injustice and then not rallying under the "banner" when someone actually does something. I can't stand people of weak convictions. If they're really that cowardly, then I have no mercy for them.

I mean hell! What are they afraid of? This is just the internet!!!! It's not like anyone can reach out and slap you for saying something they don't like!

[Id]

Glad you caught my HIDDEN IMPLICATIONS there, Id. Dun dun dun!

People not being public and passionate about their opinions is what caused the shit in the AG in the first place. When I left there, people assured me that was changing and that they'd all learned from the big drama blow up, but nooo!
I'm sick of these people whining to me in private about the latest injustice and then not rallying under the "banner" when someone actually does something. I can't stand people of weak convictions. If they're really that cowardly, then I have no mercy for them.

I mean hell! What are they afraid of? This is just the internet!!!! It's not like anyone can reach out and slap you for saying something they don't like!

Yes, this is the internet, but the fact of the matter is, this is a community.

Take these two examples:

Being out on the road in your car.
Being in a grocery store line.

These are both public places where you could be cut off in line. If someone cuts you off on the road, you will say whatever you want and call them an asshole at the top of your lungs. This is because they are not gonna hear you because of all the noise on the road, and even if they do, it's not going to be worth their time to pull over and pull a gun on your ass except in the most EXTREME cases.

THIS is the internet in general. THIS is where you can say whatever you want.

But take the grocery store: it's still a public place, but if someone cuts in front of you there, chances are you're just going to suck it up and stand there. Sure, Dev, people like YOU (and me, heh) may have the balls to confront this kind of asshole, but that isn't most people. Most people are gonna just stand there and take it because they just wanna get through the day. They're gonna just complain about it in private to their friends, and get over it. Or they'll stop coming back to the grocery store if it happens over and over without being addressed by the manager.

THIS is what an RP clique is like. The grocery store.

It's hard to find a RP clique in the first place. Rolling up a new character is like being a big fat tall black guy in the middle of Taiwan. You're gonna be an outsider and nobody's gonna wanna talk to you. They don't trust you (in this case, to offer them good RP). Only after weeks of scrimping and lingering will you actually get noticed, unless you know somebody on the inside. So once you get in, yeah, you're generally not going to want to just get kicked right back out again. I, for one, have no problem calling people out on BS, but I do NOT expect my friends to do the same. Nobody wants to be that odd man out again. You should be able to at least understand that, right?

[Devin`Asures]

I can understand that, but I certainly don't respect it.

It just means that these people won't have your back when push comes to shove. When the shit's hitting the fan and you've been banging on about how "everyone" has made complaints, and then you're asked "who?" you end up looking like a right wally if you can't name names IE: when the people who cried to you don't front up.
Now that's ok. Yeah, some people go through life being chicken shit and would rather curl up and cry than stand up for what they think is right. I get that too. Those people need others--stronger people-- to defend them.
What I cannot stand though, is when I give my defense, when I make sacrifices for them (in this case I almost lost the friendship of an excellent player who I was very close to), when I become the outcast all of them, and they do not have the decency to support me when it's clear I'm being ripped to shreds or the validity of my concerns is under fire.
I probably would never have began any of this if none of the AG members had complained to me about the state of things. It all started because I was championing Grace against what I viewed as a malicious attack against her. I shouldn't have done that, because this is where it got me. Bad choices on my part.

This is why a lot of "drama" looks like drama. I look like I'm acting alone, the problems look like they're coming from I alone rather than the numerous individuals who I sought to speak for. I'm telling them now not to complain to me about their issues regarding this, because if they don't have the guts to do something about it, then I can't be bothered putting myself in the line of fire for them.

[Id]

Dev, I said it once and I’ll say it again: if you can’t stand on your own two feet, don’t stand up at all. Again, I know it sucks. Again, I know it may not be morally right. But you must learn to respect your friends’ privacy. There are at least three good RPers in the AG that are not even posting here at all. I don’t know why, but I am going to take a wild stab and guess that they don’t care about the OOC and are just there for the RP. Perhaps it's true that one or two of them agree with some of your points in private, but you should take that for what it is: blowing off some mutual steam. It wasn’t a call for a sacrificial lamb, I’m sure.

That said, you can’t play the sacrificial lamb one minute and expect to be the great General MacArthur leading his soldiers in to do battle the next. I don’t know how things are with the AG, but I’m kind of guessing that nobody asked you to stand up and start callin’ people out and making broad sweeping apologies and all that good stuff. NOW I’M NOT SAYING that you were particularly wrong for doing this: if you feel that way, hell, go for it, says I. ALL I’M SAYING is that you shouldn’t expect others to feel that there should be drastic changes. I think they probably would rather just suck it up and get their groceries and go home to the sweet sweet RP. Not everybody considers these sorts of things to be epic battles of right and wrong.

Bottom line, your fight is yours alone. Own it. This ain’t no shared lease.

Also: tee hee. Wally. ^_^

[Devin`Asures]

Id - I've read what you said, and appreciate your feedback in this issue. However, I think that without all the information, you're not in a very good position to guess at what was going on. I understood your point about not being able to stand up blah blah, and if you were implying that I couldn't, I'd like to assert that I can, which is why I'm here.
I'm here on my own because no one else has the guts, and I'm afraid I just can't respect whiny cowards. Now I'm not saying I tried to be the big wow general AND the sacrificial lamb all at once. That's a false dichotomy of the situation and way too oversimplified.

Rather than give you a blow by blow account of what led to what and why this or that was done, I'll just tell you thank you and leave it be.
What I'll take away from this though is that never again will I bother to stand up for other people here, and if someone wants to whine to me about the state of affairs in the RP room I was moderating, then I'll tell them to say it in public or STFU.
I was a huge advocate for respecting the privacy of my fellow players in the sense of not naming who made what accusation or said what and protecting them as their moderator, but now I see why the accused should always have the right to face their accuser; so the damn lawyer doesn't get screwed over.

[Xachariah]

SUCK IT DOWN

Got nothing to do with this thread but clearly my contributions to this drama-fest are as expert as anyone elses' at this point.

An expert response, John. Keep it up.

[Id]

What I'll take away from this though is that never again will I bother to stand up for other people here, and if someone wants to whine to me about the state of affairs in the RP room I was moderating, then I'll tell them to say it in public or STFU.
I was a huge advocate for respecting the privacy of my fellow players in the sense of not naming who made what accusation or said what and protecting them as their moderator, but now I see why the accused should always have the right to face their accuser; so the damn lawyer doesn't get screwed over.

What you should also do is take down that post that originally got me going (even though by now it is likely too late to do any good). The one that you basically called your friend out in. Then I will be most satisfied that you are indeed were ever in the spirit of respecting privacy and not naming names. It really wasn't fair to do that just because she had an opinion. C'mon.

Do it for the llamas. (I have another dA account I could get on...)

[Kade]

Maybe I'm just being too American or something, but spine is generally a good thing, Id.

I know these are extreme examples, but the people you're defending, Id, sort of remind me of a few stories I've seen on the news.

http://www.authorsden.com/categories/article_top.asp?catid=53&id=51785

Twenty onlookers and nobody did anything?

http://www.americanheritage.com/places/articles/web/20060313-kitty-genovese-queens-kew-gardens-new-york-martin-gansberg-murder-winston-moseley-john-lindsay.shtml

Same sort of 'not my problem' attitude, and I doubt any of these people advocate rape/murder. They're just spineless.

I realize internet drama is nowhere near as bad as rape or murder. It's just the notion of clearly having an opinion but doing nothing to stand by it that bothers me. Especially at someone else's expense.

[Id]

Same sort of 'not my problem' attitude, and I doubt any of these people advocate rape/murder. They're just spineless.

Rape and murder? Really? We're going there? REALLY?

Okay. The Genovese case is an example of a very specific psychological phenomena known as the Bystander Effect. Simply put, it happens in those cases where multiple people know something wrong is going on but do not act because they expect that someone else will do something in their stead. The rape case you linked to I had not heard of before, but it sounds like those individuals, considering the article says that many of them cheered the rapists on and offered to join in, were sick, deranged individuals.

Neither of these cases are in any way comparable to what just happened here. I am only defending one person not "people" as you describe. The person I defend simply did not wish to have her opinion on the matter publicly broadcasted -- most likely because while she agreed with Dev on some points, they weren't completely on the same page. One wished drastic measures to be taken -- the other didn't. Action was taken by one -- the other didn't support it.

What happened here was not a crime against humanity, even on a very small scale. It was Dev getting frustrated because she was the only one wanting to take it this far, and she had some expectations for backup that didn't happen. Hell if you insist on comparing it to something DRASTIC, I'm sure there's some kind of failure to stop a terrorist attack due to lack of a unified mindset amongst the victims you can dig up somewhere. But not rape or murder. Not in these cases, anyway. No. No comparison.

[Kade]

Before you pick up a torch and pitchfork, Id, read my post again and you'll find I'm in agreement with you about how extreme those examples were.
It just reminded me of that stuff.

Here's your second freethrow. Don't mess it up.

I realize internet drama is nowhere near as bad as rape or murder. It's just the notion of clearly having an opinion but doing nothing to stand by it that bothers me. Especially at someone else's expense.

There's the net. That's where you'll find the point.

[Id]

I didn't miss the point -- I missed the part where people are supposed to always do something drastic about their opinion. I don't always like my boyfriend's taste in clothing, but I don't burn his wardrobe to the ground over it.

[Kade]

If your boyfriend's taste in clothing was screwing someone over, I'd definitely do something about it.

I can't believe you just missed both freethrows. -Sadface.- Thanks for the negative pie, too. I hope you like pecan.

[Id]

Yeah, okay. 

[KitDreamer]

okay kids, settle down now. It's way past your bedtimes.

[Rosery]

Devin: I doubt you'll belive this and I can't make you do as such but I consider you and Arixus really good friends, I know you two don't but I never stopped caring about you and I was there while much of this intial grace shit (Or the middle of it) was going on, in fact you spoke to me about it here and there. I can't recall if I supported you or just kind of kept my peace back then, having more information now I think your a better person for standing up for those who are to weak or meek to stand up for themselves, to afraid of say anything or get mad. I think that's a great thing to do regardless if those people are there for you or not, sometimes being the good person that I always felt you were is standing up for people while knowing they won't stand up likewise because for whatever reason there to afraid. So I think your a good person for this even if you feel angry that these people turn there backs on you.

On the same hand as much as I consider you a friend and I say this in that same capacity as someone who sees you and Arixus as friends, there were times I thought your judgements were just a tad harsh, at this moment I can only recall a single exact instance, word for word as it were (don't ask me for every word please I'm just using it as an expression) but there were times when I was permitted to be friends with you both that I thought you could be a little harsh. Overall that never really got me close to thinking less of you, like I said I think your both very good people and I always respected you for standing up for people Devin regardless of what was in it for yourself.

((If either if you are interested in knowing which instance I can recall at this moment, as I try to think up more though it's hard when I'm being distracted, I'll let you know via PM. As for both I am speaking to Devin and Arixus, nobody else.)

So just please understood I am not in anyway taking a shot at you I am just voicing something that I think is somewhat important and that in the future you might think about but I still consider you both my friends, I think your both good people and I think it takes a lot of good will and courage not to metion general faith in people to stand up for strangers and friends alike and to apologize as you did Devin. (If I missed an apology from you Arixus lemme know. Otherwise all of that applies to you both save for the last five words.))

[Devin`Asures]

Sure, Rosery. Let me know which instance you can recall where my behaviour struck you as harsh, but only if it done by me as an RP moderator, not my personal opinion. I know you and I had our personal quarrels because I assumed you only wanted to be my friend to get to Arixus and didn't value me as a player or fellow at all, but that was a personal issue, not a moderation related one.
I'm interested to know what you remember. Thank you for voicing your opinion and making the offer of a PM. I'll be sure to check my messages here.

Id - I'm afraid I'm not going to take down that post. Not even for a llama! (GIVE DEVIN LLAMAS PLZ) I think some people need to be taught a lesson, and all I've done is repost things said to me in a conversation. The person who said them had absolutely no guarantee of privacy from me regarding the content of our conversation, so I hope that either they will learn to watch what they say, stop whining to me, or become brave enough to stand by their statements. I do not consider what I've done as anything heinous or damaging; I posted what was said in a conversation. I didn't do anything like reveal personal RL information about someone, name, country of origin, phone number, address, gender, age blah blah blah. I would never cross that line.
I am glad though, that the post motivated you to enter the discussion. The person I called out is probably not my friend anymore, and if this is the case, then I'm not exactly sorry to lose them if not backing me up is how they're going to roll.

It is my hope that this example will stand for people to either support what they've said, or not speak at all if they're too cowardly, even in private (especially to me because I'm SICK of all the bitching, two faced side talk and whining! Don't talk to me about your issues if you're not prepared to do anything about them. That goes for EVERYONE OMFG.)

[KitDreamer]

Dev, mate. Might i make a suggestion? Lock the thread. That way it won't spiral on and on out of control any further. :/ I think any point that could be possibly made has been, and as far as I can see, this thread pretty much outlived its usefulness. It's just devolving into childish insults, asstardery, trolling, and headache inducing wankery. Locking the thread would be a positive step towards culling that before it gets even worse.

[ZulNarith]

lulz worthy


Not many things are lulz worthy anymore these days.