EXCUSE ME SIR BUT I APPEAR TO BE BANNED :B

[TheMadHatter]

One thing some of you forget.

The Keep is not the government. They have a list rules. And that's commendable. But ultimately this is a social environment, not a legal one. They have no real obligation to rightfully uphold the AUP. In fact, they wrote it, and can rewrite it whenever the fuck they want. The fact they set themselves guidelines is generous, not mandatory.

It being FACT that the TK is a social hub, and not a courtroom, I would have to say the most stupid thing a person could do is intentionally offend a MOD while they are handling a chore (because it really isn't a duty). The administrators and mods of TK are not law enforcement officials. There exist no ramifications for kicking and banning their users, besides community backlash like this. There is no 'standard' beyond the guidelines they set for themselves.

The point remains: Petra was out of line, and got her just desserts. If she got worse desserts than everyone else, she probably went out of her way to PISS the people off wielding the big stick, and a lot more than other people. Unless anyone in here is actually so gullible as to think petra was the most mild personality in the room. *rolls his eyes* Like I said, TK is a social environment. And unless everyone is going to quit coming here because of what SSS did to Petra, the talk won't matter.  

Fun Note: I've never read the AUP. I've never been in trouble with the mods, either. Is this a miracle? Nope. I just know the best way not to get my ass banned is to make some effort to get along with people, and especially not piss off the people in charge of this SOCIAL place. If I were running my own community, and some stupid twit had the gull to accuse me of sleeping with children or something, I'd click the ban button and go 'lulz'. Got that moron. If the other morons offended me less, they got less. But the notion Petra is owed any sort of apology is asinine at best.  

The keep wouldn't be anything without the players, and it should feel like all of ours. Or it would end up like the Mystic Tavern that is just a chatroom with no users ever. We put tons of hours into the chat to build roleplays and make it what it is. We also donate money to it. So why can't we have a say in how it's ran? We're just suppose to sit here, keep our heads down, and not say anything because we're afraid of being banned? Then what is the purpose of even having these forums?

[-=Styles=-]

There's a second part on that particular post that covers that, so it's likely you misunderstood.

I made a dumb suggestion because I'm tired of the same stupid shit, simply put.

But this isn't about that, it's about Petra's unwarranted ban.


EDIT: referring to Kade's comment.

EDIT 2: Good point, Hatter.

[Kade]

Good point, Hatter.

Solum, your houseowner metaphor might be how you see it, but I'd tweak it like this...


Petra is a guest in a very large house with tons of other guests. She was one of many people that insulted one of the Houseowners, amongst a population of guests that constantly insult each other, and at the time were going as far as trying to slit each other's throats. However, she got booted out. Not anyone else. Not cool.

Oh, and in my version of this metaphor, it's the guests that pay the mortgage, not SSS/Houseowner.

More accurate, right? I know.

[Solum]

The keep wouldn't be anything without the players, and it should feel like all of ours. Or it would end up like the Mystic Tavern that is just a chatroom with no users ever. We put tons of hours into the chat to build roleplays and make it what it is. We also donate money to it. So why can't we have a say in how it's ran? We're just suppose to sit here, keep our heads down, and not say anything because we're afraid of being banned? Then what is the purpose of even having these forums?

You're right, it wouldn't be, and the mods know that. Which is why they have an AUP. And we do very much have a say. They run polls here, take in our opinions, and even elect community mods from what I've seen. I personally don't doubt that SSS is a jerk. But nothing will ever change the fact that THIS is the MOD'S house, ultimately. And Petra stupidly insulted the home owner. You just don't get belligerent with a guy in his own home unless you're ready to walk out the door.

You bring up an extreme. But lets pretend for a moment you are running a community, hatter, and one of your members calls you a homosexual and a heterosexual. Are you really going to put up with that shit? Hahahaha. I wouldn't in MY house. The reason TK has not dwindled into the mystic tavern is because the circumstances are not as grave as you implicate. Our say counts here. It doesn't have to, and it won't in EVERY minute detail (such as with Petra), but it does, and for quite a bit. And I'm sure SSS made the ban of a woman who annoys the fuck out of most EVERYONE knowing full well the whole community isn't about to march out on her behalf. If a few people were to trickle off over it, oh well.

But to me it's a pretty clear cut case. Don't call the home owner a homo and a sexual predator in his own house. If you can avoid doing that, he'll probably be willing to hear you out and try to be reasonable to some extent.

 

[Solum]

Good point, Hatter.

Solum, your houseowner metaphor might be how you see it, but I'd tweak it like this...


Petra is a guest in a very large house with tons of other guests. She was one of many people that insulted one of the Houseowners, amongst a population of guests that constantly insult each other, and at the time were going as far as trying to slit each other's throats. However, she got booted out. Not anyone else. Not cool.

Oh, and in my version of this metaphor, it's the guests that pay the mortgage, not SSS/Houseowner.

More accurate, right? I know.

You're right. I amend my metaphor. The home owner is now the landlord of a very large apartment complex. Go call your landlord a flaming fagot and a sexual predator. If they tolerate it, they are just willing to put up with your bullshit for the few pennies you are giving them. But it ultimately comes down to what the mods are willing to put up with. And petra skated a pretty potent line. Welcome to reality, ladies and gents. Don't piss off the guy in charge of his own roost. He's just renting the space to us, and any ONE of us can be replaced if we give him a large enough headache.

And this move isn't about to drive off THE REST of his business. Petra can scream, and wine, and be bant all that she is, and most of us will still show up tomorrow.

[-=Styles=-]

Just to illustrate a point....

I do believe that the AUP was modified by users/non-mods more than once. This forum, however, is so cluttered with shit that I'd never be able to find out if that's 100% or not.

[TheMadHatter]

The keep wouldn't be anything without the players, and it should feel like all of ours. Or it would end up like the Mystic Tavern that is just a chatroom with no users ever. We put tons of hours into the chat to build roleplays and make it what it is. We also donate money to it. So why can't we have a say in how it's ran? We're just suppose to sit here, keep our heads down, and not say anything because we're afraid of being banned? Then what is the purpose of even having these forums?

You're right, it wouldn't be, and the mods know that. Which is why they have an AUP. And we do very much have a say. They run polls here, take in our opinions, and even elect community mods from what I've seen. I personally don't doubt that SSS is a jerk. But nothing will ever change the fact that THIS is the MOD'S house, ultimately. And Petra stupidly insulted the home owner. You just don't get belligerent with a guy in his own home unless you're ready to walk out the door.

You bring up an extreme. But lets pretend for a moment you are running a community, hatter, and one of your members calls you a homosexual and a heterosexual. Are you really going to put up with that shit? Hahahaha. I wouldn't in MY house. The reason TK has not dwindled into the mystic tavern is because the circumstances are not as grave as you implicate. Our say counts here. It doesn't have to, and it won't in EVERY minute detail (such as with Petra), but it does, and for quite a bit. And I'm sure SSS made the ban of a woman who annoys the fuck out of most EVERYONE knowing full well the whole community isn't about to march out on her behalf. If a few people were to trickle off over it, oh well.

But to me it's a pretty clear cut case. Don't call the home owner a homo and a sexual predator in his own house. If you can avoid doing that, he'll probably be willing to hear you out and try to be reasonable to some extent.

Have you ever been in the MainHall, Solum? Especially when well...there were regulars and 24-7 ooc? They use to rip people apart. They still do, with certain people in there. So yes, I have had very insulting and offensive things thrown at me. I've been trolled, I've watched people be trolled all the time. So I'm not talking about an extreme example, it happens all the time.

[-=Styles=-]

>.>

DING!

Am I on the right thread for this debate?


Can we get a merge, pl0x?!?!

[Solum]

Have you ever been in the MainHall, Solum? Especially when well...there were regulars and 24-7 ooc? They use to rip people apart. They still do, with certain people in there. So yes, I have had very insulting and offensive things thrown at me. I've been trolled, I've watched people be trolled all the time. So I'm not talking about an extreme example, it happens all the time.

Well, I don't doubt that you've been a victim. And I don't doubt that every situation that occurs isn't handled properly. But this isn't about how you've been treated, anyway. This whole thread is about Petra and her 'unfair ban'. And whether or not it should be lifted. (See the Original Poster)

They have polls and allow you to vote mods in and out. You might not see your changes instantly, hatter, but they will come if they become self evident in the community. Or you use the forums to make them self evident. Such is the way of any moderately democratic system. I can want a new president right now. But it isn't going to happen over night.  

But back on the topic: Was Petra banned unjustly? Nope. She done fucked up. Did everyone else get the same treatment? No. But there treatment (like hers) is probably dependent on how out of her way she went to piss off SSS. Should her ban be lifted? Well, you can feel that way if you'd put up with someone in a community you own calling you a faggot and a sexual predator.  

The Keep has guidelines, sure. But fact remains, it's a social environment. Not a business. Not a courtroom. And even if it was a courtroom, petra was guilty. But it's not. So it's circumstantial.

[TheMadHatter]

Have you ever been in the MainHall, Solum? Especially when well...there were regulars and 24-7 ooc? They use to rip people apart. They still do, with certain people in there. So yes, I have had very insulting and offensive things thrown at me. I've been trolled, I've watched people be trolled all the time. So I'm not talking about an extreme example, it happens all the time.

Well, I don't doubt that you've been a victim. And I don't doubt that every situation that occurs isn't handled properly. But this isn't about how you've been treated, anyway. This whole thread is about Petra and her 'unfair ban'. And whether or not it should be lifted. (See the Original Poster)

They have polls and allow you to vote mods in and out. You might not see your changes instantly, hatter, but they will come if they become self evident in the community. Or you use the forums to make them self evident. Such is the way of any moderately democratic system. I can want a new president right now. But it isn't going to happen over night.  

But back on the topic: Was Petra banned unjustly? Nope. She done fucked up. Did everyone else get the same treatment? No. But there treatment (like hers) is probably dependent on how out of her way she went to piss off SSS. Should her ban be lifted? Well, you can feel that way if you'd put up with someone in a community you own calling you a faggot and a sexual predator.  

The Keep has guidelines, sure. But fact remains, it's a social environment. Not a business. Not a courtroom. And even if it was a courtroom, petra was guilty. But it's not. So it's circumstantial.

Well actually everything I've said has to do with the initial ban being unfair and I have remained on the topic. You can't ban a person for a day for calling someone a homo, and not do it to others, especially just because it was directed at a mod. I have seen worse and I know they have too. Why wasn't the ban hammer brought down any other time? Because it wasn't directed at them? I don't recall in the AUP that some rules apply only to the moderators and some rules only apply to the users.

Also what does Obama have to do with anything? And you called me off topic, lol.

Although something off topic, rule 6 in the AUP did happen to me and it wasn't handled properly. Which is probably why I am so upset that this ban was taken as something serious (being called a homo as a joke), but when someone harassed me about personal details I wanted to remain private and they stated it publicly more than once...

It took them a month to decide they weren't going to help me, it took a second for a moderator to decide to ban Petra.

[Pink]

Lulz. U got bant.

I LOVE YOU AND YOUR PANTS, SIR.


And sorry, Petra. You just aren't cool enough to troll the mods and get away with it. But thank you for playing.
I think Six was being gracious considering it's Six, honestly. But, you got...

[Kade]

It took them a month to decide they weren't going to help me, it took a second for a moderator to decide to ban Petra.

See Inconsistency #4...

Petra was originally kicked for talking when the mod said no more OOC, and as Silent Kamikaze stated, she didn't even know she wasn't supposed to OOC. At the time, it was scrolled well off-screen by other people OOC'ing after SSS' order. Not all of those people were kicked. (Inconsistency #1)

She came back in and insulted a mod (who insulted her first with Inconsistency #1), and was swiftly banned. Meanwhile, Ahrimar, Incandescence, and several others were insulting the mod / questioning his authority too (Inconsistency #2).

Moreover, plenty of WORSE insults were flung at other people in the room, but those mud-slingers weren't banned. Just the one that targeted the mod. (Inconsistency #3)

The swiftness with which Petra was banned was ridiculous. In any other complaint from one user to another, there would be warnings issued at the very least. Petra received no such warning. (Inconsistency #4)

You're sounding like a broken record, Solum. We're not here to debate the sociology of TK, or to discuss whether or not we even have the grounds to complain. It doesn't matter if TK is a business, courtroom, or fastfood joint, or whether mods are cops, regular people with feelings, or chimps. We're just here to be heard on the subject of Petra's ban, in whatever form is available.

If mods are obligated to follow the AUP, SSS fucked up, and I'm formally complaining.
If mods aren't obligated to follow the AUP, SSS fucked up as a person, and I'm informally complaining.

If you don't have a bone to pick with whether we complain formally or informally, and it's the fact that we're complaining at all that bothers you, then you probably shouldn't be on the forums. This place is full of complaints, and complaining about complainers is pretty self-defeating.

[TheMadHatter]

Lulz. U got bant.

I LOVE YOU AND YOUR PANTS, SIR.


And sorry, Petra. You just aren't cool enough to troll the mods and get away with it. But thank you for playing.
I think Six was being gracious considering it's Six, honestly.

So if you're a Lobby regular then you're treated differently and the AUP doesn't apply to you? Seems a lot like favoritism.

[Pink]

What are you talking about? The mods have absolutely no love for me. They already conspired against my comrade.

[Familiar]

Pretty sure most of the people who donate to the Keep try not to cause problems with the Moderators and would like for the site as a whole to not end up with chatters spouting off insults to one another on that sort of level. More should have been done about what was happening on the Arena last night, and where the old saying of, "the nail that stands highest gets hammered down first" comes in with Petra's case. I saw people begin to quiet down to what was happening ten minutes prior that caused me to leave in the first place, and once again fire up about the ban.

[Xachariah]

I wasn't there, but a lot of this thread reminds me of the thing with Sid. "The initial ban may not have, strictly-speaking, been deserved. Yes, I signed on after I got banned, and then I got perma'd."

Differences: Sid was drunk, not stupid enough to accuse the mod staff of sex crimes after being kicked. I know my first reaction if I was a mod and somebody said something like that would be a dayban, because there's insults and then there's "we've banned people when they insinuated that they did something illegal with minors." Maybe there were worse insults, but how many were in that particular court? (Also, Sid's ban was only pretty much only debatable because there wasn't any particular clause in the AUP about what constituted harassment. He was also pretty damn stupid to do what he did. That's beside the point.)

In any case, I'm of the opinion that this ban be upheld, not because I know, like, or anything else anyone involved, but because if you start using whether the initial ban was deserved or not as a way to justify unbanning people despite their later flauntings of the AUP, including (and, even, possibly limited to) evading of the initial ban, it opens up a whole other can of worms. (Then there's the whole 'well, if they were willing to ban evade once...' line of thought, though to me it's a notch or two behind "Sure, maybe it was undeserved. But then you started breaking the other rules.")

Other than that, hey, it's not like we pay the mods. I'm not even being sarcastic, they do this job that gets shit flung at them all the damn time more or less because they're willing to try to help keep order, for little or no reward besides people being assholes at them. Of course there will be inconsistencies (and then there's just how ridiculously many times you'd have to use the /kick command in a situation like that, with, seemingly, everybody in the room disregarding your warning. One of the reasons I would suggest /kick commands with mutliple targets). Of course they're not going to be relentlessly impartial automatons of justice. They're human. It's a wonder they haven't just /banned us all for general douchebaggery. It'd be nice if they were all paragons of efficient issue-correction, veritable demigods of making the chat a better place - but they're just people who get way too much shit flung at them for doing the job they do, without pay.

[Cosmodeous]

And this is why it doesn't work. Everybody starts bitching when initiative is taken. All you hypocrites and waffles out there simply do nothing but add to the calamity. Let the mods be mods, whilst you users be users. Some times you just got to bite the bullet with this sort of thing.


~~So Spake The Grey Diamond

[John Romero]

Wait, so after repeated warnings to stop the OOC bullshit as per

9. Any user who persistently talks (as opposed to whispers) Out Of Character in In-Character only rooms will be asked to role-play;

failure to comply may result to kicking or any punishment deemed appropriate by the administrative staff.

you went ahead and accused a moderator of sexual abuse of children, which is not only out of character and disruptive, but insulting and something that has been asked that people not do in the past (see Web~Janitor's post during the Dalton loliwhateverthefuckitwas incident), and you got a day ban for your trouble. . .

And then you came in on your phone and flaunted 'lol I shouldn't be here but I am anyway', and now you're bitching and moaning about being banned?

Baaaaaahahahahahahahaahaha.

[Xachariah]

Wait, so after repeated warnings to stop the OOC bullshit as per

9. Any user who persistently talks (as opposed to whispers) Out Of Character in In-Character only rooms will be asked to role-play;

failure to comply may result to kicking or any punishment deemed appropriate by the administrative staff.

you went ahead and accused a moderator of sexual abuse of children, which is not only out of character and disruptive, but insulting and something that has been asked that people not do in the past (see Web~Janitor's post during the Dalton loliwhateverthefuckitwas incident), and you got a day ban for your trouble. . .

And then you came in on your phone and flaunted 'lol I shouldn't be here but I am anyway', and now you're bitching and moaning about being banned?

Baaaaaahahahahahahahaahaha.

Expertly put.

[Pitch]

As hilarious as this is to me...as a brief room mod and Admin of Gatezero, one thing is for certain.


You do stupid shit, you get banned. And the Supreme Court is not going to handle any butthurt about it. So thats the bends.

[Silent.Kamikaze]

Wait, so after repeated warnings to stop the OOC bullshit as per

9. Any user who persistently talks (as opposed to whispers) Out Of Character in In-Character only rooms will be asked to role-play;

failure to comply may result to kicking or any punishment deemed appropriate by the administrative staff.

you went ahead and accused a moderator of sexual abuse of children, which is not only out of character and disruptive, but insulting and something that has been asked that people not do in the past (see Web~Janitor's post during the Dalton loliwhateverthefuckitwas incident), and you got a day ban for your trouble. . .

And then you came in on your phone and flaunted 'lol I shouldn't be here but I am anyway', and now you're bitching and moaning about being banned?

Baaaaaahahahahahahahaahaha.

Expertly put.

Firstly, I was probably the only person not consistantly OOCing as the rule states. Looked over, made one comment. We've all established it was a Oh dear rude comment, however it wasn't against the rules. When I was in there, I saw no warnings about OOC, no RP going on, just a mod. 'lol u homo' OMG HOW RUDE. Like that hasn't ever been said to players or moderators without reprimand.

As for me coming in a second time and insulting him again. I didnt say he abused children, just that No he isn't a homo since that seemed to offend him, and that he actually just enjoys touching women with small children around.

Thirdly, enough people that were there have agreed it was a bogus kick and ban, uncalled for and without warning. Funny that most of the people who disagree weren't even there. O:

And as for people saying 'Dude she didn't deserve the first ban' but the 'Second one was totally called for'. Why should I be banned for however long for some stupid reason(No one told me until afterwards that it was just a day ban) When all I did was call a mod a name? Who hasn't done that? What I did was NOT against the AUP. I was NOT repeatedly OOCing, nor was I harassing anyone.

Also don't compare me to Dan. From what I remember, that retard repeatedly evading a block and ban to troll someone. Repeatedly. That was harassment.


And question: Why do furries with pornographic pictures get warnings? Why do people who post cyber in public rooms get warnings, or less? AND I have actually complained before when I certain Arena goer dropped a link to graphic, lesbian power ranger porn. She didn't even get a day, and I'm not even sure the mod spoke to her about it. So.... for calling Six a homo, which I figure is fairly tame compared to these things, I'm banned?


And lol @ all the lobbyers coming out of the woodwork.

[Kade]

Wait, so after repeated warnings to stop the OOC bullshit as per

9. Any user who persistently talks (as opposed to whispers) Out Of Character in In-Character only rooms will be asked to role-play;

failure to comply may result to kicking or any punishment deemed appropriate by the administrative staff.

you went ahead and accused a moderator of sexual abuse of children, which is not only out of character and disruptive, but insulting and something that has been asked that people not do in the past (see Web~Janitor's post during the Dalton loliwhateverthefuckitwas incident), and you got a day ban for your trouble. . .

And then you came in on your phone and flaunted 'lol I shouldn't be here but I am anyway', and now you're bitching and moaning about being banned?

Baaaaaahahahahahahahaahaha.

Expertly put.

Expertly put if that was even how it happened, but it wasn't, so... nice try. D: Should've been there.

[Moondog]

AND I have actually complained before when I certain Arena goer dropped a link to graphic, lesbian power ranger porn. She didn't even get a day, and I'm not even sure the mod spoke to her about it.

I didn't receive any complaints about this. Did you take a screen-shot of the incident in question and pass it along to a moderator, or otherwise report it in any way?

If so, and nothing happened, maybe they were away from the keyboard. It happens.  Still, had I seen it, something would have been done.

While I'm not going to address the other issues brought up, I will say that we can only enforce what we see and we cannot be around always to see everything.

[Silent.Kamikaze]

At the time I had screenshotted it and brought it to a mod. I thought it was you, but it was a while ago- might have been someone else. Either way she wasn't banned, and I had consulted a mod with the shot so.... ?
Maybe she just got a warning.

The point is, someone can get a warning for posting graphic porn, but not for using a generic insult like 'homo' which isn't really offensive, unless you have something against the gay community. :| I THINK THIS IS STUPID

[Pitch]

This is hysterical. You call someone a homo/child molester/rapist and then ban evade...and act like its nonsensical to ban you.

Really?