Lag between Ban command is Ban-evade?

[Bekz]

Since when?

I know you all hate Kade's guts and hes scuuum between yo toes, but seriously, this is the most ridiculous junk.

The lag between the ban command and the actual ban is ridiculous. It's something like... I don't know, somewhere between ten and twenty seconds. That's more than enough time for somebody to type two or three lines and exit AFTER the command was entered. I know, because the same thing happened the other day when I banned someone from an RP.

You can't exactly fault him for the lag in command. And, according to Madelyn, Familiar admits to there being a glitch involved with the ban command.








C'mon, this is just dumb. Drop the ban and fix the lag.

[Pink]

[Bekz]

Yes, Pink, your shit posting is very cool. Could we maybe stick to the topic at hand? That would be awesome.

[Levistus]

WHAT IF WE TAKE KADE'S BANISHMENT...

[Levistus]

... AND PUSH IT SOMEWHERE ELSE?

[HitlerTony]

... AND PUSH IT SOMEWHERE ELSE?

..Oh god I love you, Levistus..

[Bekz]

Thank you for turning a legitimate concern into an unnecessary flame-a-thon.

[Savon]

I would be interested in seeing the log of what happened. 

[SilverStreak]

The lag between the ban command and the actual ban is ridiculous. It's something like... I don't know, somewhere between ten and twenty seconds. That's more than enough time for somebody to type two or three lines and exit AFTER the command was entered. I know, because the same thing happened the other day when I banned someone from an RP.

You can't exactly fault him for the lag in command. And, according to Madelyn, Familiar admits to there being a glitch involved with the ban command.

Except, usually, when there's lag, everything gets posted all at once. And also, usually, when someone gets banned they don't also exit the room afterwards. Furthermore, we're not talking about 10 or 20 seconds here. We're talking about 36 seconds, from a guy who was going out of his way to intentionally get himself banned from the room.

19:04:30 [Kade] I'm going to go try to get myself banned from the Lounge.
19:04:36 [Kade] Since you guys won't do it.

19:08:33 [Swazzie] Have fun.
19:12:31 [Kade] Well, as long as they know I intend to get banned, I guess that means I can do whatever I want with impunity.
19:12:40 [Kade] Thank you, Swazzie.



Also, the only thing I heard Familiar say, with respect to a possible "glitch," was that she wanted to discuss this event with Moondog and the other members of staff before action was taken, to rule out the possibility of a system glitch. If Kade is now banned, this presumably means that other members of the staff have removed this shadow of doubt.

Sorry Bekz, but my full house beats your two-pair.

[Bekz]

The lag between the ban command and the actual ban is ridiculous. It's something like... I don't know, somewhere between ten and twenty seconds. That's more than enough time for somebody to type two or three lines and exit AFTER the command was entered. I know, because the same thing happened the other day when I banned someone from an RP.

You can't exactly fault him for the lag in command. And, according to Madelyn, Familiar admits to there being a glitch involved with the ban command.

Except, usually, when there's lag, everything gets posted all at once. And also, usually, when someone gets banned they don't also exit the room afterwards. Furthermore, we're not talking about 10 or 20 seconds here. We're talking about 36 seconds, from a guy who was going out of his way to intentionally get himself banned from the room.

19:04:30 [Kade] I'm going to go try to get myself banned from the Lounge.
19:04:36 [Kade] Since you guys won't do it.

19:08:33 [Swazzie] Have fun.
19:12:31 [Kade] Well, as long as they know I intend to get banned, I guess that means I can do whatever I want with impunity.
19:12:40 [Kade] Thank you, Swazzie.



Also, the only thing I heard Familiar say, with respect to a possible "glitch," was that she wanted to discuss this event with Moondog and the other members of staff before action was taken, to rule out the possibility of a system glitch. If Kade is now banned, this presumably means that other members of the staff have removed this shadow of doubt.

Sorry Bekz, but my full house beats your two-pair.

We could always test that theory. In a room filled with people, all posting within a few seconds of each other, continuously kick someone and suddenly ban them and see how long it takes for the ban to go through. I'd wager that with all of the posting going on at once in a room of that size, Silver, lags the action pretty hard. But, of course, none of this can be proved unless Kade grabbed a shot of the room with the forethought of having to argue against a ban-evade ban. Which he didn't. So, I'm sure you assume my point is moot. If they absolutely need proof to unban, I don't have any to give. I just know that Kade didn't ban evade because he wouldn't. He hasn't before and I trust him when he says he didn't now.

So, if the ban can't be undone, I still request that Web~Janitor look into the lag time between ban and see if something can be done. That still feels like a concern to me, considering there is a distinct possibility that people banned for "ban-evading" may just have been victim to the command's lag time.

[SilverStreak]

We could always test that theory. In a room filled with people, all posting within a few seconds of each other, continuously kick someone and suddenly ban them and see how long it takes for the ban to go through. I'd wager that with all of the posting going on at once in a room of that size, Silver, lags the action pretty hard. But, of course, none of this can be proved unless Kade grabbed a shot of the room with the forethought of having to argue against a ban-evade ban. Which he didn't. So, I'm sure you assume my point is moot. If they absolutely need proof to unban, I don't have any to give. I just know that Kade didn't ban evade because he wouldn't. He hasn't before and I trust him when he says he didn't now.

So, if the ban can't be undone, I still request that Web~Janitor look into the lag time between ban and see if something can be done. That still feels like a concern to me, considering there is a distinct possibility that people banned for "ban-evading" may just have been victim to the command's lag time.

I've actually, inadvertently, tested this theory a few times Bekz; some people like to act like little brats when they know they're getting targeted by a banhammer and exit before you have a chance to issue the /ban.

This has happened to me twice, and in both cases an individual was poking in, shitposting, and taking off before I had a chance to issue the ban. The quickest I can get my browser to refresh is /refresh 3, and the individuals, both times, were pushing this limit.

So what happened?

I would type /ban <name> as soon as the screen showed them entering the room .... the server would lag for a few seconds (as you've described) ... it would then show <name> exits the room, and give me an error message, proclaiming "<name> is not in the room."

Believe it or not, the server does seem to keep a record of when commands are issued, so if someone clicks "exit" before someone else types /ban ... the "exit" goes through first, even if it all posts at once.

Also, you know, when stuff lags, when it all does post, everything usually has the same or similar timestamp. This was not the case here.

Furthermore, if you look at the log, Kade says, "Feels so Good," followed by "You're just demonstrating how immature you are" (the latter coming 24 seconds after the /ban). To me this indicates that he is responding to the /ban, and also indicates that he was not just clicking to exit. Even if he were on /refresh 10 he would still have noticed he was banned. (Besides, what else would he have been responding to?)

This isn't even considering that as soon as a /ban goes through, you get tossed out of the room by default.

I wasn't there, but the evidence looks pretty solid to me. Sorry Bekz.  

[Bekz]

We could always test that theory. In a room filled with people, all posting within a few seconds of each other, continuously kick someone and suddenly ban them and see how long it takes for the ban to go through. I'd wager that with all of the posting going on at once in a room of that size, Silver, lags the action pretty hard. But, of course, none of this can be proved unless Kade grabbed a shot of the room with the forethought of having to argue against a ban-evade ban. Which he didn't. So, I'm sure you assume my point is moot. If they absolutely need proof to unban, I don't have any to give. I just know that Kade didn't ban evade because he wouldn't. He hasn't before and I trust him when he says he didn't now.

So, if the ban can't be undone, I still request that Web~Janitor look into the lag time between ban and see if something can be done. That still feels like a concern to me, considering there is a distinct possibility that people banned for "ban-evading" may just have been victim to the command's lag time.

I've actually, inadvertently, tested this theory a few times Bekz; some people like to act like little brats when they know they're getting targeted by a banhammer and exit before you have a chance to issue the /ban.

This has happened to me twice, and in both cases an individual was poking in, shitposting, and taking off before I had a chance to issue the ban. The quickest I can get my browser to refresh is /refresh 3, and the individuals, both times, were pushing this limit.

So what happened?

I would type /ban <name> as soon as the screen showed them entering the room .... the server would lag for a few seconds (as you've described) ... it would then show <name> exits the room, and give me an error message, proclaiming "<name> is not in the room."

Believe it or not, the server does seem to keep a record of when commands are issued, so if someone clicks "exit" before someone else types /ban ... the "exit" goes through first, even if it all posts at once.

Also, you know, when stuff lags, when it all does post, everything usually has the same or similar timestamp. This was not the case here.

Furthermore, if you look at the log, Kade says, "Feels so Good," followed by "You're just demonstrating how immature you are" (the latter coming 24 seconds after the /ban). To me this indicates that he is responding to the /ban, and also indicates that he was not just clicking to exit. Even if he were on /refresh 10 he would still have noticed he was banned. (Besides, what else would he have been responding to?)

This isn't even considering that as soon as a /ban goes through, you get tossed out of the room by default.

I wasn't there, but the evidence looks pretty solid to me. Sorry Bekz.  

You're not understanding me, Silver. Take into consideration the number of people in the room. Then add the fact that he'd been kicked something like ten or fifteen times. I'm not saying he actually exited the room before the ban was issued. I'm saying that she hit the /ban command and in the midst of the collective lag, he exited while the ban was still in progress.

Like I said, if Kade's ban can't be overturned, I understand. I still don't think it's right. But the lack of evidence can't be denied as far as his case is concerned.

However, as I stated in my first post in this thread, I used the ban command the other day. I hit /ban, the message came up that the user was then banished from the room. And several seconds later I saw two consecutive posts, but no exit. It does happen, Silver. I can't prove that that's what happened in Kade's case, but I've seen it happen in others.

And your theory, about everything coming out with the same timestamp, is flawed. If you had major lag, time would still be passing. And if he posted before the ban actually kicked in, then it would post at the time he hit enter.

[Rook]

I'll run the tests myself on various OSes and browsers.

Really, you don't want the guy that cheated on a poll Web set up to be noticed by Web. And the whole 'I'm going to get get banned in that room.' thing isn't exactly playing in the lad's favor either.

Just, you know, saying.

It's, to the best of my knowledge, a 10 day ban. The usual fare for an evasion is a permanent ban.

So, yes. Don't bring attention to it. : )

[MadMusician]

Exiting/rejoining a room in rapid succession, in my mind, is ban evasion. This is something, in my mind, that could also be attributed to Murphy's Law. What if there was a power outage? He decides to go to bed? Pink telaports into his house and smashes his router with the vengence of a angry god? Is it ban evasion if, at that moment, he decides to go somewhere else? It's not like a "MAH BAHN IS KOMEN!" starts flashing at the bottem of the browser when someone types it in...unless, you know, they announced moments before, that at that moment, they were typing the ban command, which is beyond me when you go "I'MA BAN YOU!" when you coulda just been typing "/ban Kade".

Just saying. There's too many things that -could- of also been happening, and it's a mistake to attribute to malice what could also equally be stupidity or horrible timing.

Edit: Now that I think about it, it's also very hard to replicate conditions on the network, when shit is happening like this. Though, I have observed massive lag before myself, (Not to say it was happening.) the point where it may of been happening could be many, many places. And yes, while Kade is dumb, he's not -that- damn stupid to purposely do things that would get him permabanned. Though sometimes, I do wonder...

[Bekz]

I'll run the tests myself on various OSes and browsers.

That is all I'm asking for.

Kade's case can't be argued, this I know. It's his word against witnesses and evidence and lots of yadda yadda. I trust him, but I know that's not enough. Kade's ban is Kade's ban.

Thanks for looking into the lag thing, that's my main concern here.

[Kade]

Yes, I was kind of trolling for a room-ban. No, I didn't know I'd end up being accused of ban evasion.

If I need to be the fall-guy for some kind of problem/bug/glitch the chat has that the staff isn't aware about, then fine. Let me describe *exactly* what I saw before I learned I was banned. I know my word isn't worth much, but maybe TK's tech people can come up with a diagnosis from the symptoms I'm going to describe.

First of all, I was on whichever version of Firefox is the most updated version. I don't know precisely, because I just go along with whatever updates the almighty Firefox wants me to download. [I'm the kind of moron that'll end up with 2-3 different toolbars in his explorers because I never know what I'm DL'ing x_x]

I'm also on Windows Vista 64, or 82, or something. I remember it's the bigger number of the two.

I got kicked over and over. The kicks were causing some wicked lag for me. It'd take me 3-5 seconds to log into chat after typing in my password and hitting enter, and even when I logged in sometimes the text wouldn't come up and the room listings wouldn't load. Sometimes the font looked wonky, like it was too big, or the lines were too spaced out, or both. At least one of the times when I was typing in my "Feels good" pseudotaunts, the entry never left my enter-box so I clicked "exit", logged back in, and tried to type it again. I do remember thinking two went through, even though I attempted to enter it three times.

Believe it or not, I don't get banned or kicked often, so I don't really know about what sort of symptoms are normal for kicking and banning. I do know that when I've banned or kicked people, it tends to lag me pretty hard for maybe 5-7 seconds before it goes through. I also know that I've seen the weird "too big" font and "too spaced out" lines in main chat before, but never in a kick or ban related situation like this. Usually it happens in the middle of greenlights when I try to refesh my browser manually, but sometimes it will happen out of the blue. Normally, I just exit and re-enter the chat when this happens, chalking it up to TK's general clunkiness.

Now this is where that screenshot doesn't make sense to me (and this is the first time I've seen it). I did see Ecksmun comment on how nobody gets it when he says "feels good man," and I was about to respond to it with a harmless "Lol Ecks" but that was when the lag spiked again. It was a kick, because I was returned to the login screen. I had to type my password, hit enter, and wait for the enter-box to show up again before I could talk. I waited a long time. I saw *nothing* but white in the main chat area on my screen that entire time. Everything else was doing that big-text thing I was talking about earlier. Also, when the main chat finally seemed to load a little, I only saw my last couple entries. They were spaced out wide, like double spaced. Everyone else's text was gone, and I saw no banishment message. The lines I'd entered while the screen loaded up, since in my head I was racing against the next kick, didn't show up on my screen even though they had vanished from my enter-box. I assumed I was lagging / getting kicked and my messages weren't going through again, so I clicked "exit" and I then saw on the login screen that I'd been banned from the room.

So... yeah. Hopefully that helps your bug-investigation, Rook. Or whoever else is going to check this out.


tl;dr version: A play-by-play of everything Kade saw during that room-ban he "evaded." Also, Kade is a bit / very computer illiterate.

[Rook]

Edit: Now that I think about it, it's also very hard to replicate conditions on the network, when shit is happening like this. Though, I have observed massive lag before myself, (Not to say it was happening.) the point where it may of been happening could be many, many places. And yes, while Kade is dumb, he's not -that- damn stupid to purposely do things that would get him permabanned. Though sometimes, I do wonder...

I can replicate lag without issues. Kade, I'll need your OS & browser. Versions, as well, please, for both.

[Kade]

Edit: Now that I think about it, it's also very hard to replicate conditions on the network, when shit is happening like this. Though, I have observed massive lag before myself, (Not to say it was happening.) the point where it may of been happening could be many, many places. And yes, while Kade is dumb, he's not -that- damn stupid to purposely do things that would get him permabanned. Though sometimes, I do wonder...

I can replicate lag without issues. Kade, I'll need your OS & browser. Versions, as well, please, for both.

I think I just gave you that in my big post there. Unless OS doesn't mean what I think it means -- which is totally possible. I piss off my tech-savvy friends all the time with how little I understand of this stuff.

Edit: I don't know if this matters, but the network I am on / was on during the ban is not slow at all. It's quite fast. So in my under-computer-educated head that tells me the lag was coming from TK rather than the wireless I was on. But I don't know. This could just be caveman-trying-to-invent-fire logic.

[Darling]

So.... just so I understand this.

Kade got a 10-day ban for ban evasion, even though he wasn't ban-evading and it was a problem with the lag and the system in general?

I think it's pretty well known that /kick commands and /ban commands lag. Every time I'm in a moderator position in a room, doing ANYTHING, even /promote makes me lag. Text pops up before the command goes through, even after I press enter...

... so because of a faulty system, Kade's taking the fall?

Lol.

The funniest part about this is anyone accusing Kade of ban-evading. He doesn't give enough of a shit to ban-evade. Especially not for a room like The Lounge.

[Auvic]

@Kade:
If Rook's looking for browser/OS info, easiest way to do it is to find your 'My Computer', right click it, go to properties. Should display most of the basic hardware/OC information there - and if you help->About Firefox, it should pull up a window with your FF version as well.
SS both, send 'em to him, and I think that might be what he's looking for.

Also, Darling:
Possible ban evasion, possibly a flaw in the system itself. The entire point of running tests is to find out which it was - and you making the assumption (since there's no real way to prove it one way or another) that Kade wasn't ban evading is about as silly as assuming that he was.
But, yes. Punishment is sitting at 10-days as far as I know for the moment because it might not be ban evasion (as opposed to perma, which is the usual punishment for ban evasion). And honestly, if it turns out to be a flaw in the system, I'm pretty sure the ban'll be removed altogether.

Hardly something to be getting worked up about, srsly.

[HitlerTony]

...I had 42 nega pies.. Now I'm back to 23. I hate you all.

[1337]

I don't think the ban evasion was intentional. However if we changed the reason for him getting banned from "Ban Evasion" and "Being a douchebag no one seems to like" at the very least then we'd be honest.

I'm certain his behavior had a weigh in on the decision to ban him. Either way, he got himself in that position. "I'm going to go into this room and get myself banned."

If he just let it go and didn't go out of his way to annoy other users he wouldn't be in this predicament at all.

[Vivi]

I have no issues with him as a person, 1337, however by all appearances it looks like he did it.

In essence I'm forced into a situation where its a user's word against the server log's. I, not having been present at the actual event, have to go off what I see. What I see appears to be ban evasion.

As I've stated before if the case is otherwise then I've made an error in judgment and apologize, however mods can hardly be present for every event taking place on the server any time, and thus we have to act on what it appears to be based on logs and such.

[HitlerTony]

I have no issues with him as a person, 1337, however by all appearances it looks like he did it.

In essence I'm forced into a situation where its a user's word against the server log's. I, not having been present at the actual event, have to go off what I see. What I see appears to be ban evasion.

As I've stated before if the case is otherwise then I've made an error in judgment and apologize, however mods can hardly be present for every event taking place on the server any time, and thus we have to act on what it appears to be based on logs and such.

Well, let's be realistic here. There isn't a program that really allows a kick or ban to be nullified, or for it to not work. If he were using, let's say... a phone or a psp, I could understand that happening.. maybe(this actually used to work in the past), but I doubt he was. But, let's be realistic here; if you get kicked or banned, the kick/ban is going to happen. You can't nullify a kick or ban. You can only, later, get around that kick/ban with a program. But a certain Site-Owner recieved a CERTAIN CODE from a CERTAIN SOMEONE that nullifies most proxies. Unless that certain Site-Owner isn't using it. Or it never worked. My advice; stop trying to pin something on the kid that he obviously didn't try to do. Server lag=/= ban evasion. Server lag= the ban showed on the banner's side of the screen, but didn't take effect yet on the banee's side of the screen.

[HitlerTony]

Also, if someone can demonstrate to me how someone can fully avoid a kick/ban, and completely nullify it, I'd be more inclined to believe that it's possible. Otherwise, it just looks like a bunch of bull to me.