Lookin' for some feedback

[Nenrotair]

Alright. So this was supposed to be a fight between Golmire and Nenrotair, obviously enough. Just lookin' for comments, and to clear up if Golmire would have been killed in the last post that I had made.

[Everquest]

I was there the entire length of the battle. It wasn't an E-pissing contest. There was just a little murk that we needed to clear up with more minds and opinions. By this he doesn't mean your half-assed faggatory attempt to sound like your opinion can move mountains, which it cannot.

[Everquest]

Of course you are a troll, even if your balls don't have the integrity to bounce that check you tried to cash. You feel that you had to dignify my challenge with a reply. Something which I am not going to fuel any longer because this is meant for people who actually have the maturity to provide adequate feedback to a murky situation, not you trying to slap dicks with someone WAY over your league.

[Kade]

I can't be assed to read the logs, but I do enjoy watching e-fights as they happen.

Mature ones. Not the ones where the fighters flame each other.
Or the ones where observers flame the fighters for no reason other than, you know, enjoying an e-fight.

[Everquest]

Oh so you're just a tough guy?

[TheMonkeyKing]

Steering things back to the original topic...
Okay, let's take a look at the fight. Break it down a little:

 1.Golmire: Heavy kick to chest. Laughter. Assume defensive stance using light source as advantage.

2. Nenrotair:No-sells the kick via jump. Double slash to stomach[damaged reduced due to long range.] Set up counterattack on enemy limbs. Attempt to remove light advantage by backing away.

3. Golmire: Toughness negates pain/etc. Tries for feints[ignores counterattack potential with armor/skill] Attempts to back enemy into a corner. Sidestep and heavy blow to head.

4.Nenrontair: Negates heavy punch with sword counter/impale[Heavy damage]. Light attack to arm. Sidestep to get out of range of other fist. Reversal on river advantage.

5. Golmire: Takes damage from counter w/disarm. Remove embedded weapon [more damage] Throw away sword. Wait for opening, right punch to ribs. Ignores damage from light counterattack. Right punch to jaw.

6.Nenrontair: Negates disarm. Attack with other sword and into chest. Sets up regeneration through enemy blood loss.

7.Golimire: Allows entry. Takes stomach wound due to large mass. Applies choke hold. States target unconsciousness. Throws enemy in river, removes weapons from body. Heads for home.

I think that, frankly, Nen would have won here. When you held onto your sword and were pulled in, you stabbed Gol in the chest with your other sword where it would have been impossible for him to dodge. An inclined thrust under the solar plexus, reaching just below the heart, is an excellent killshot.

Frankly, what was hardest about analyzing this was the level of disrespect shown here. Gol introduced every attack as if it was a direct hit. Considering that he seems more the big and slow character, while you're smaller and faster, that's pretty annoying. Also, the god-mode choke at the end is eye-roll worthy, not to mention the notion that one could simply walk home after losing that much blood. Then again, I don't know his species or vital statistics.

Gol may have attacked as if he was going to hit, but whenever he saw your response, he amended his own version of the events quite well, taking a realistic level of damage for this sort of match up. That said, the only reason you won is because you said "Nope, that doesn't work," to EVERY ATTACK THROWN AT YOU, and because Gol apparently forgot that you had two swords instead of one at the end, which meant that you could stab him. In your own posts, you take no damage whatsoever and completely disregard any expertise your opponent might have. No grazes, no glancing hits. Not even a bruise. You showed an utter lack of respect for his character, treating it like a disposable NPC.

Frankly, the way this should have ended was with Nenrotair sporting multiple bruises and perhaps a cracked rib, and Golmire's hand on his throat. The fatal stab would have come during that choke move.

So to sum up.  (tl;dr) Yes, you won. You did it in a very unsportsmanlike fashion.

[Everquest]

Of course you are a troll, even if your balls don't have the integrity to bounce that check you tried to cash. You feel that you had to dignify my challenge with a reply. Something which I am not going to fuel any longer because this is meant for people who actually have the maturity to provide adequate feedback to a murky situation, not you trying to slap dicks with someone WAY over your league.

Hahahahahah. Oh man.... That's... priceless really...

Again. I am not a troll. You are an egotistical idiot.

At least when I'm being egotistical, it's for my own entertainment. What's your excuse?


I am not quite sure that this has the merit of a highwayman's word given the fact that you are still enabling this. That completely voids the moral route you are so failaciously trying to take.




Also, I did not "dignify your challenge with a reply". I made a correction... but I suppose the world looks however you like when you're a moron that makes nothing but baseless assumptions.

[Nenrotair]

Actually after he had left I posted again and had stated that his hand had indeed closed around Nenrotairs neck, and had given him a good choking, but he ultimately died before he was able to cause him to lose consciousness.

Another note being... If he is as big as he is, he can't be quick.. What is power when you can't hit your opponent? If he would have actually gotten Nenrotair into a position where he would actually have had to take a blow he would have taken it but I don't see why I should take unnecessary damage. Especially when pretty much one hit from him would have been lights out for Nenrotair.

[TheMonkeyKing]

That's good to know. I stand corrected.

That said...

Speed and skill are two different things. Judging from his posts, use of feints and so on, Golmire is certainly a good fistfighter, and used to fighting armed opponents. If you're saying that you were so fast that only total immobilization would let him catch up with you AND that you're better with your weapons than he is with his, then Gol was in a fight out of his power class in the first place, which means that this fight was simply a foregone conclusion and not an engagement at all. Like I said before, there were no near misses and no grazes.

[Nenrotair]

Well yeah. Nenrotair is supposed to be excellent with his weapons and relatively quick, since those are really the only things going for him. He's got a few other tricks but for the most part he is just a Dark Elf.

The whole issue, after speaking with Golmire was that he said because we didn't give exclusive permission to kill each others characters that his death didn't happen... Even though his character picked a fight with mine in public with no previous mentioning that the events during the fight were not actually going to happen to the characters.


Edit: To Draco, I accepted the hand around my throat, but as Monkey had said I setup a healing effect proportional to the amount of damage I was doing to Golmire, so even if he had crushed my windpipe before he died, it would have been healed.

[Kade]

If he is as big as he is, he can't be quick..

This sort of thinking isn't true, btw.

[Styles]

The whole issue, after speaking with Golmire was that he said because we didn't give exclusive permission to kill each others characters that his death didn't happen...

Imho, this type of thing is a total cop-out. If you die, you die. Sorry to pull this into irl terms, but just because you didn't agree to kill someone by shooting them in the head with a cannon at point blank range doesn't mean they won't die. Personally I believe if you engage with another (during a Combat RP scenario) with the means to actually kill them (i.e. killing blows, lethal weaponry, etc.) and they actually die....so? Was that not the point?

That's the whole basis behind fighting. Dominance over another. (sometimes for sport in the event that you're just practicing)

Big deal if a character dies. Know how many resurrection entities are on tK?

If he is as big as he is, he can't be quick..

This sort of thinking isn't true, btw.

That is a stereotype that needs to be abolished.

[TheMonkeyKing]

The point of RP fighting varies from character to character and person to person, though I will concede that we all like to win. There's a trend among those who view their characters as their personal avatars that them "dying" is inherently permanent or scarring, or that their character will be somehow gone forever if they're eliminated in a one-off game.

For this reason, there's often a caveat or provision in the rules section on many RPs saying something like "death only results in mutually agreed upon situations." All things considered, I can (ha) live with this. We're here to have fun, and if you're squirming because you're character has been disemboweled, you probably aren't enjoying yourself. If you're complaining about it and rocking the boat, no one else will, either.

Even if those rules aren't present, there are many of ways to cop out if you really must. We're writers for goodness' sake. Write yourself out of it. If you wrote yourself into a corner then there are thousands of other worlds to play around in. Plenty of RP fights have been won by cutting off a few limbs, by loss of consciousness, or falling off a cliff to an uncertain fate, etc... and quite a lot of characters have failsafe powers, clones, and so on that will keep them alive, or, as Styles brought up, there's always resurrection magic.

As long as things are sportsmanlike, there shouldn't be a problem no matter what happens. However, no-selling all of your opponent's attacks OR copping out at the last minute don't fall under the heading of sportsmanship.

[Auvic]

@Styles:
The most obvious problem with your thinking of "If you're fighting, you're fighting to win - and if someone wants to kill the other guy, someone's probably gonna end up dead" is that it leads to character-power-arms-races.
Don't believe me? Look at all the people that don't wnat their characters to die off, then look at how powerful those characters also are. There's a pretty strong correlation between how much you like your character actually being alive, and how strong they are.

Also, in regards to resurrection entities:
How is "lol okay so this goddess just returned my guy to life, just so you know" somehow less of a cop-out than "Uh, actually, I don't want my character to die. I'm just going to say that neither of us killed the other."
And if you pull the "Well, you can have other people go and do a fancy resurrection ceremony to bring you back, so it's a legitimate IC thing!", consider the following:
1. You require an entity, which is a cop-out to begin with, since allowing for resurrection itself is pretty much a cop-out already
2. You require other people to voluntarily help you out
3. You're all of a sudden, because you couldn't hold your own in combat, inconveniencing everyone else that could possibly want to RP with your character because they've gotta go and get you alive before you can all go get wasted and punch each other in the face again.

Small wonder why people don't just up and let their characters die.
( also, /everyone/ potentially has the means to kill just about anybody, excluding (demi)gods, etc, because all you need is a pair of hands and the right leverage to snap a neck. So "engaging with means to actually kill" covers almost every engagement ever. )

@TMK:
Failsafe powers are pretty bleh, unless they're suicidal ones, imho.
Ditto clones. You're not friggin Voldemort, get over it.

[SilverStreak]

Obscene amounts of oldfag incoming...

Let me preface everything by saying that my RP Combat "upbringing" and decade-plus of experience has led me to put absolute power in what I hold to be the "Player Consent" method of dealing with things. This way of doing things basically asserts that your character is your intellectual property, and the only person who has any authority about what happens to him or her is you.

Now, granted, the great debacle this opens is to what extent you exercise that 'ownership' of your character, because once you draw a line, you need to stick to it, otherwise any combat situations are going to be devoid of any enjoyment for anyone else. However, I've always advocated that a death in one setting, one night, in one RP, doesn't spell the absolute end for a character for all future scenarios, settings, RP's or worlds. There is no proven, universal linearity or continuity between RP sessions here, (unless specifically DMed or agreed upon by players), so if you really like a character that died in one fight somewhere along the line, you, as that character's creator, get the luxury of writing off that fight and moving on to a new setting or timeline. I've often found it interesting to intentionally let a character die off, just to go back to play that same character 10 years younger for example.

The only reason people get pissy about doing things this way is because, if, for example, you get killed off by some Joe Schmoe, his ego takes a bit of a hit every time he sees you still active and RPing on the handle he just 'knocked off' a few days ago. Still, what's the worst anybody's going to do, /ignore you? Oh, Please.

That all said however, proper combat form is essential for "Player Consent" to have any weight, and what I'm seeing here is atrociously messy.

I see dodges, attacks, and pre-emptive dodges all sort of cobbled together in one post. I'm also seeing tons of auto-hits (some even stacked one on top of the other). Besides, In my opinion, you should only get to make one move per post.

More to the point, in my mind, fighters are obligated to be completely forthcoming about what their respective characters are capable of doing, defending, or dodging before any combat begins (either explicitly stated on their profiles, or enumerated in an opening post- which neither of you did, btw); it is much, much easier to call someone out on metagaming than it is to debate what his or her character is capable of.

Personally, if it had been me involved, I probably would have called bullshit and peaced out way before it got this "serious."

Now in answer to your initial topic: The kill looks like bullshit to me. The whole thing was autoed, including the prep, and the execution. HOWEVER, your combat wasn't much better, to be honest. Neither one of you has much of a leg to stand on.

My advice? Build a bridge, get over it, and just keep RPing. We're here to enjoy ourselves by writing and interacting, and if some people want to get off by pretending they've obliterated something of value (like your character), then that's their deal, man.

[TheMonkeyKing]

@Auvic
I wasn't advocating for someone to keep getting back up in the same RP and inconveniencing everyone. I meant that, if someone subscribes to the multiple universes reasoning behind a recurring character in vastly different environments, having something written into the backstory or powers list that let's someone justify a return can be used as a crutch. Of course it's better for people to be mature and take things in stride. Not everyone is going to act that way, though, so if they have to have a fallback, at least let it be one that makes sense.

Frankly, I agree with SilverStreak. Whatever the rules are, whatever situation you're working with, agree to it beforehand and have a good time.

[Styles]

@Styles:
The most obvious problem with your thinking of "If you're fighting, you're fighting to win - and if someone wants to kill the other guy, someone's probably gonna end up dead" is that it leads to character-power-arms-races.

I'm aware of that. Fully. So in retrospect, there's not so much a problem with my thinking about that as much as people have a problem with the...

Let me preface everything by saying that my RP Combat "upbringing" and decade-plus of experience has led me to put absolute power in what I hold to be the "Player Consent" method of dealing with things. This way of doing things basically asserts that your character is your intellectual property, and the only person who has any authority about what happens to him or her is you.

....ordeal. I've been around long enough (doesn't mean I've always been on tK, obviously) that I've seen more backpedaling than progressions. It just seems like OoC cowardliness to me.

(Also, gtfo out if you can't take someone's opinion on the matter. It's an opinion, not a deadset law. =| )  <----Aimed at those who deserve it because this happens all to often.

As far as the whole resurrection thing, obviously that's a cop out to me, it was meant to be sarcastic. That is something else that happens too often, along with retarded retcons (sp?) enabling your character to come back just because you said so. (insert narutardation effect)

EDIT: In summation. Shit happens, get over it. Don't like the outcome, go for a rematch and pull in some worthy people to facilitate some sort of impartial referee positions (if it's necessary, and it seems it may be)

[SilverStreak]

@Styles

Eh, you perceive it as Cowardliness, for me it's just always been emotional attachment.

My list of characters is very small because I've spent a lot of time investing myself in them, so if some random individual decides, for no obvious reason, to suddenly go ahead and cap one of them out of the blue, you'd better believe I'm going to call bullshit and ignore it. I'm probably different though, because I also don't get characters I like entangled into combat situations -- that's just common sense to me.

Now, you're certainly entitled to disagree, but it's the folks with this rigid 'lolikillejoo, ur character is ded, u can't play him nemore' mentality that are hurting RP combat, because at some point it stops being about advancing a plot, or progressing a character, and becomes a bunch of ego-driven idiots pissing on each other because they can.

In a DM'ed setting, with a lot of specific details and an established continuity, you've probably got a case, but if someone's killed Character A in Setting A one night, and they get pissy that Character A is in Setting B another night, I say tough shit.

I don't want to misrepresent your point, but I also feel compelled to just say, that it's the apparent lack of any standardized method or ruleset for combat that has almost completely driven me away from it these days, and unless people agree on rules (either in general, or on a per-case basis) it's just an invitation for clusterfucking, which is all I ever see, and that's my opinion.

[Styles]

Now, you're certainly entitled to disagree, but it's the folks with this rigid 'lolikillejoo, ur character is ded, u can't play him nemore' mentality that are hurting RP combat, because at some point it stops being about advancing a plot, or progressing a character, and becomes a bunch of ego-driven idiots pissing on each other because they can.

Hence my mention of backpedaling over progression. That gets on my nerves just like anyone else because it's against what could possibly be considered as a "mature role player standard"

I don't want to misrepresent your point, but I also feel compelled to just say, that it's the apparent lack of any standardized method or ruleset for combat that has almost completely driven me away from it these days, and unless people agree on rules (either in general, or on a per-case basis) it's just an invitation for clusterfucking, which is all I ever see, and that's my opinion.

Don't worry, you're not. I never fill in all the holes when I post on the forums. Namely because I get severely distracted and end up doing other things, ultimately not caring about the value they hold. But I do concur that some sort of standardization is necessary. Not so much "You can't kill me because I don't want you to." and then OoC bickering ensues because of differences. More like "There is potential for this-sort-of-shit to happen and it is wise to acknowledge that."


EDIT: Because sometimes shit does just happen.

[Auvic]

For the record, at the bottom of /whois Nenrotair:

Here are a list of people who Nenrotair has killed. If you see them around ask them why they are still on that character:
Golmire
Latana

So yes, this does sort of bother me.

@TMK: I wasn't meaning to imply that people in the current RP would be involved in the resurrection attempt; but in the off chance that you're not playing Multiple-Timeline-Trunks, someone, sometime, would have to carry your dead ass around and bring you back to life.
It's really a hassle, and I wouldn't recommend it unless none of the people involved have anything better they could be doing.

Then again, if you're Multiple-Timeline-Trunks, well. That's who you are.

Tancred hasn't posted in here, but he knows full well that death to a character of mine is death.
End of story, that's it. I don't like it when my characters die, but I don't also pretend "oh lol that's a different story ahahahaha, he's alive in this one!" because there's far too much chance for interaction between characters to play that off.
And trying to explain "Wait, you talked to who? And he was alive? I saw ___ kill him!" is sort of a pain, because any manner of truthseeking will show that there's two correct versions of the story. Etc etc.

@Styles:
As you can tell, I obviously failed to grasp the sarcasm in your resurrection bit. Whoops.
Although as far as "mature roleplayer standard", I would hope that it also involves, to some extent, realizing that you can't just do whateverthefuckyouwant and disregard other people's opinions about things (read: wanting their characters to remain living) solely because you find it amusing to kill people.
If RP is for enjoyment, and you're only looking for your own, you're a douche through and through.

Two-minute man? Two-minute man.

[Kade]

If RP is for enjoyment, and you're only looking for your own, you're a douche through and through.

Hell yeah, man.

[TheMonkeyKing]

I think we can all agree that permanently destroying someone's character simply to say that you have is less than respectful. Good RPers are in short supply, and the last thing we want to do is alienate each other.

@Auvic
To clear things up: In an RP, if one of my characters gets killed, I won't deny that fact and try to slip them in later. If there is another RP in the same universe with the same characters, then I won't say that they're alive without providing a decent explanation and wait for the go ahead. I'm not denying death, continuity, or basic common sense. That said, if I'm allowed to bring someone back and feel that it would do something for the story, then I'll ask if I can.

The biggest reason why I'm wary of killing PCs is that it knocks players out of the RP. I you leave someone unconscious and bloody, or at the bottom of a cliff, you still win, but they don't have to make a new character to keep playing.

[SilverStreak]

I think we can all agree that permanently destroying someone's character simply to say that you have is less than respectful. Good RPers are in short supply, and the last thing we want to do is alienate each other.

@Auvic
To clear things up: In an RP, if one of my characters gets killed, I won't deny that fact and try to slip them in later. If there is another RP in the same universe with the same characters, then I won't say that they're alive without providing a decent explanation and wait for the go ahead. I'm not denying death, continuity, or basic common sense. That said, if I'm allowed to bring someone back and feel that it would do something for the story, then I'll ask if I can.

The biggest reason why I'm wary of killing PCs is that it knocks players out of the RP. I you leave someone unconscious and bloody, or at the bottom of a cliff, you still win, but they don't have to make a new character to keep playing.

This. 

[Styles]

@Styles:
As you can tell, I obviously failed to grasp the sarcasm in your resurrection bit. Whoops.
Although as far as "mature roleplayer standard", I would hope that it also involves, to some extent, realizing that you can't just do whateverthefuckyouwant and disregard other people's opinions about things (read: wanting their characters to remain living) solely because you find it amusing to kill people.
If RP is for enjoyment, and you're only looking for your own, you're a douche through and through.

Yes. It's something I realize and acknowledge, though not so openly as most. As far as disregarding someone people's opinions, it's not so much that as much as it is an omission from mentioning.

So yes. RP is for enjoyment, obviously. To some it is equably as much enjoyable being a douche without the knowledge they are as much it is providing mutual entertainment beyond self worth.