Nexxushost Forums

General Category => General Discussion => Topic started by: General_Iowa on October 12, 2015, 12:02:25 PM

Title: Staying around here
Post by: General_Iowa on October 12, 2015, 12:02:25 PM
I honestly think I am starting to get to the point where I may leave TK and never come back.  Most of the people I ever really cared about have done so on a permanent or near permanent basis and I honestly don't get into conversations in rooms anymore because I get the honest feeling most of the people in the spots I go could care less if I say anything even with knowing them for years.
Title: Re: Staying around here
Post by: MEGAMADMUSICIAN on October 12, 2015, 03:43:41 PM
(http://m.memegen.com/rkrz7b.jpg)

But in all honesty, a fair amount of people are feeling like that.
Title: Re: Staying around here
Post by: Karasu on October 13, 2015, 07:41:29 AM
Other options exist. Most don't leave TK permanently, as I stand as proof, but that's a choice each makes individually.

I've noticed the apathy in TK growing as well. But then again I think the reasons stem somewhat with handfuls of users and the economic and social idioms IRL too. Do try and be patient though. You never know what will come if you're not there for it or part of the change in making it.
Title: Re: Staying around here
Post by: MEGAMADMUSICIAN on October 13, 2015, 06:21:58 PM
I can actually elaborate on this a bit more.

Over the past couple of years, I've noticed an unhealthy obsession with many TKers of wanting to know the personal buisness of the person they're RPing with. It used to never be this way, and things used to go much smoother as a result.

Sure the person you're playing with might be batshit insane, but people wanted to RP more than to ask political questions.

At some point though, people decided that they HAD to personally know someone, should it be because they liked the person or because they were trying to find a way to discredit the mook because 'there's no way he's stabbed someone with a knife IRL before" or whatever bullshit reason of the day is. As a result, while some users ramped up their Social Combat abilities, others decided to go full defense, and they shut nearly completely down. They get very cautious about who they want to RP with, because that's precisely what they want to avoid.

There's honestly a whole bunch of bullshit that went into things being like how they are on TK, because I've seen this shit happen before.
Title: Re: Staying around here
Post by: Karasu on October 13, 2015, 08:13:27 PM
I can actually elaborate on this a bit more.

Over the past couple of years, I've noticed an unhealthy obsession with many TKers of wanting to know the personal buisness of the person they're RPing with. It used to never be this way, and things used to go much smoother as a result.

Sure the person you're playing with might be batshit insane, but people wanted to RP more than to ask political questions.

At some point though, people decided that they HAD to personally know someone, should it be because they liked the person or because they were trying to find a way to discredit the mook because 'there's no way he's stabbed someone with a knife IRL before" or whatever bullshit reason of the day is. As a result, while some users ramped up their Social Combat abilities, others decided to go full defense, and they shut nearly completely down. They get very cautious about who they want to RP with, because that's precisely what they want to avoid.

There's honestly a whole bunch of bullshit that went into things being like how they are on TK, because I've seen this shit happen before.

I think this is the first time you've blown my damn mind.

It's nice though to see that you've hit the nail pretty much on the head.

Most people in TK by now do know other players by name, and insist on playing with players not characters. To be fair, players do fall into ruts of being typecasters and playing the same rehash stuff, but, the site as a whole wasn't really set to be user to user as an rp medium. Escapism is supposed to be about avoiding who we are or were and gaining things we aren't or that we want to be. I think a number of people forgot that and just went either into the ic Arms Race ideology*, or they capped themselves and after years of the same tired stuff got bored of seeing bland ideas and acts or things they circled the habits of doing.

I've tended to avoid Arms Race myself.
Seen where it ends and I'd rather enjoy the mundane than burn out everything nearby for the sake of false power and short-lived gains.

Chat hasn't changed much in two decades though(Added OOC Lobby, Desert, and Cafe pretty much.). I still remember fighting the opening of the OOC Lobby ages ago when the Mainhall was the hinge for that kinda thing. Water Jess, Shiewie, Jade's occasional stop in. Kinda miss it. I remember the lectures I tried and failed to be heard in that the "Elites(Stronk peeps[Good combat skill, and ability to convey things well in posts and keep good plot.])", "Elders[Oldbies]", and "Ancients[Generally people I remember from the late 90's of super-early chat.]" were essentially cannibalizing the youth of the site by refusing to accept or allow them to live long enough to grow in the sites ideals before they got axed for being too annoyingly new or uncouth, without any attempt to enlighten or help them. Not much has changed at all I guess.

Difference in having more years to see it though is that occasionally some things do surprise me. Even with all the drab normalcies, good characters and players have come and gone. And interesting twists in the chat have happened. So far it's been a fairly good run... barring most recent history.

* =>[Trying to be stronk or Alpha in a place dependent on user interactions and equality. Or Veteran status. Hi oldbies, yes you're old. Doesn't afford you much does it? Sucks knowing we have ages of experience and plot built beyond understanding of others, and that they enter the field with as much right as us to clear the field or alter the play setup. I empathize.]
Title: Re: Staying around here
Post by: AsinineVulpine on October 14, 2015, 05:13:02 PM
fuck it

I have something constructive (I hope) to add, in that I have an additional viewpoint to throw into the mix.

With busy lives and such, some of the older, more established RPers find themselves often unable to dedicate large amounts of time to a roleplay. Rather than being able to dive right in any time they like and not worry a single damn about it, being able to dedicate hours and hours of their day to roleplaying at random now they have to find gaps in their busy work and responsibility-filled lives, and if you get started on some interesting roleplay with someone, you don't want it to suddenly die because you can't find the person again.

"Back in the day" all roleplay was centralised around one room, the main hall. Everything began there, and most things ENDED there too. It was the main room for roleplay and pretty much every interaction at least BEGAN in that room, if it didn't move off to another at some point to have a more focused set of interactions (yes that DOES include cyber, snickering gentlefellows in the back; you can stop guffawing, it wasn't always just sex). Nowadays, with the destruction of the Mainhall as it was, and with roleplay now being spread out all over the site, there's no central room any more, now it's all divided up into groups of friends and cliqués (which granted there were back in the day too but there were far fewer users so even those cliqués interacted with other ones and newbies simply because its all there was).

The pool of available RPers is far, FAR greater than it ever was "in the good old days", but all the established players have grown up, gotten jobs and gotten maybe even married and have responsibilities and such. As such rather than risk devoting a few hours and getting a taste of osmething that's truly interesting, only to never get to explore it any further because the other person never shows up again, they want to know who the person on the other end of the screen is so they can chat and find out when the best times to continue the story are, because time is precious and if they can't meet up regularly, or can't ever meet up again, there's no point continuing let alone starting.

Which unfortunately with aforementioned cageyness perpetuated by dickholes who use it like a weapon to make themselves feel superior, and crazy nutjobs who can't separate fantasy from reality, compounds the problem until people just... simply don't get to RP any more.
Title: Re: Staying around here
Post by: Rom Spaceknight on October 14, 2015, 09:14:31 PM
Did you dummies start a thread to cry about the scourge of SJWs lmao

 :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
Title: Re: Staying around here
Post by: MEGAMADMUSICIAN on October 15, 2015, 05:12:17 AM
Did you dummies start a thread to cry about the scourge of SJWs lmao

 :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

The only one who mentioned them was you.

Title: Re: Staying around here
Post by: Fenris on October 15, 2015, 09:57:28 PM
fuck it

I have something constructive (I hope) to add, in that I have an additional viewpoint to throw into the mix.

With busy lives and such, some of the older, more established RPers find themselves often unable to dedicate large amounts of time to a roleplay. Rather than being able to dive right in any time they like and not worry a single damn about it, being able to dedicate hours and hours of their day to roleplaying at random now they have to find gaps in their busy work and responsibility-filled lives, and if you get started on some interesting roleplay with someone, you don't want it to suddenly die because you can't find the person again.

"Back in the day" all roleplay was centralised around one room, the main hall. Everything began there, and most things ENDED there too. It was the main room for roleplay and pretty much every interaction at least BEGAN in that room, if it didn't move off to another at some point to have a more focused set of interactions (yes that DOES include cyber, snickering gentlefellows in the back; you can stop guffawing, it wasn't always just sex). Nowadays, with the destruction of the Mainhall as it was, and with roleplay now being spread out all over the site, there's no central room any more, now it's all divided up into groups of friends and cliqués (which granted there were back in the day too but there were far fewer users so even those cliqués interacted with other ones and newbies simply because its all there was).

The pool of available RPers is far, FAR greater than it ever was "in the good old days", but all the established players have grown up, gotten jobs and gotten maybe even married and have responsibilities and such. As such rather than risk devoting a few hours and getting a taste of osmething that's truly interesting, only to never get to explore it any further because the other person never shows up again, they want to know who the person on the other end of the screen is so they can chat and find out when the best times to continue the story are, because time is precious and if they can't meet up regularly, or can't ever meet up again, there's no point continuing let alone starting.

Which unfortunately with aforementioned cageyness perpetuated by dickholes who use it like a weapon to make themselves feel superior, and crazy nutjobs who can't separate fantasy from reality, compounds the problem until people just... simply don't get to RP any more.

You made some interesting points here. People change, they get/have jobs, have sex, procreate, get more responsibilities etc. Situational and relationship dynamics change, you can't change that, but how you respond or react to it is whats really important.

The main-hall thing is especially of interest as I came at a point where the MH was already purely OOC, but you describing it as a centralized RP hub that regulated things might have been where things went "Wrong"? Or rather when this paradigm ended? (Though this does seem like a limited concept, but I can see how it might work at the same time.) However this does seem to lead to a "cliquish" mentality but no more than people claimed for the Arena. However when I look at TK now, it seems more people are concerned with cuddle fucking, and being sycophantic than actually being creative. I don't mean this as a shot, but this place has become more akin to some sort of "hang out" sure there's still RP, but clearly most people notice a change in the atmosphere. I also think people are more lazy and less prone to creativity. They would rather have everything laid out on a silver platter, which is why RP is so compartmentalized right now. Most Rps are canons or original concepts concocted by a few niche individuals who are good at that sort of thing. While people who still freeform either come off (rightfully or otherwise) as overpowered and overly competitive, nonsensical, etc. So no one wants to interact in broad terms anymore. Basically Everyone is too jaded. The people who freeform either consider everyone else inferior and batshit crazy (rightfully or otherwise.) and people who might have problems refuse to acknowledge them, while neutral parties who might have otherwise gotten involved say "Fuck this." and never even bother after seeing all the stress involved.

But as Asanine said, people just get sick of not being constructive and want something more, and small groups seems to be where they are getting this from. Essentially what it comes down too is even if you find an ideal RP that's no guarantee there will be ideal schedules. It's just how the cookie crumbles. The toxic environment is also definitely something to consider, and its just gotten old and most people just don't want to deal with going into a room and immediately having to deal with some bullshit cause someone is mad over something that may or may not have happened in a fictional collaboration. : I

My first reaction was to tell you to get over it G_I but in all actuality you bringing this up raised some points that probably needed to be addressed. If you want to leave TK go ahead, but if anyone has any ideas on how to fix these issues maybe they should bring them up. If nobody sees a problem then fuck it.

(Partisan Statements will not be very productive btw, and is part of the problem.
Title: Re: Staying around here
Post by: Karasu on October 16, 2015, 03:32:09 AM
fuck it

I have something constructive (I hope) to add, in that I have an additional viewpoint to throw into the mix.

With busy lives and such, some of the older, more established RPers find themselves often unable to dedicate large amounts of time to a roleplay. Rather than being able to dive right in any time they like and not worry a single damn about it, being able to dedicate hours and hours of their day to roleplaying at random now they have to find gaps in their busy work and responsibility-filled lives, and if you get started on some interesting roleplay with someone, you don't want it to suddenly die because you can't find the person again.

"Back in the day" all roleplay was centralised around one room, the main hall. Everything began there, and most things ENDED there too. It was the main room for roleplay and pretty much every interaction at least BEGAN in that room, if it didn't move off to another at some point to have a more focused set of interactions (yes that DOES include cyber, snickering gentlefellows in the back; you can stop guffawing, it wasn't always just sex). Nowadays, with the destruction of the Mainhall as it was, and with roleplay now being spread out all over the site, there's no central room any more, now it's all divided up into groups of friends and cliqués (which granted there were back in the day too but there were far fewer users so even those cliqués interacted with other ones and newbies simply because its all there was).

The pool of available RPers is far, FAR greater than it ever was "in the good old days", but all the established players have grown up, gotten jobs and gotten maybe even married and have responsibilities and such. As such rather than risk devoting a few hours and getting a taste of osmething that's truly interesting, only to never get to explore it any further because the other person never shows up again, they want to know who the person on the other end of the screen is so they can chat and find out when the best times to continue the story are, because time is precious and if they can't meet up regularly, or can't ever meet up again, there's no point continuing let alone starting.

Which unfortunately with aforementioned cageyness perpetuated by dickholes who use it like a weapon to make themselves feel superior, and crazy nutjobs who can't separate fantasy from reality, compounds the problem until people just... simply don't get to RP any more.

You made some interesting points here. People change, they get/have jobs, have sex, procreate, get more responsibilities etc. Situational and relationship dynamics change, you can't change that, but how you respond or react to it is whats really important.

The main-hall thing is especially of interest as I came at a point where the MH was already purely OOC, but you describing it as a centralized RP hub that regulated things might have been where things went "Wrong"? Or rather when this paradigm ended? (Though this does seem like a limited concept, but I can see how it might work at the same time.) However this does seem to lead to a "cliquish" mentality but no more than people claimed for the Arena. However when I look at TK now, it seems more people are concerned with cuddle fucking, and being sycophantic than actually being creative. I don't mean this as a shot, but this place has become more akin to some sort of "hang out" sure there's still RP, but clearly most people notice a change in the atmosphere. I also think people are more lazy and less prone to creativity. They would rather have everything laid out on a silver platter, which is why RP is so compartmentalized right now. Most Rps are canons or original concepts concocted by a few niche individuals who are good at that sort of thing. While people who still freeform either come off (rightfully or otherwise) as overpowered and overly competitive, nonsensical, etc. So no one wants to interact in broad terms anymore. Basically Everyone is too jaded. The people who freeform either consider everyone else inferior and batshit crazy (rightfully or otherwise.) and people who might have problems refuse to acknowledge them, while neutral parties who might have otherwise gotten involved say "Fuck this." and never even bother after seeing all the stress involved.

But as Asanine said, people just get sick of not being constructive and want something more, and small groups seems to be where they are getting this from. Essentially what it comes down too is even if you find an ideal RP that's no guarantee there will be ideal schedules. It's just how the cookie crumbles. The toxic environment is also definitely something to consider, and its just gotten old and most people just don't want to deal with going into a room and immediately having to deal with some bullshit cause someone is mad over something that may or may not have happened in a fictional collaboration. : I

My first reaction was to tell you to get over it G_I but in all actuality you bringing this up raised some points that probably needed to be addressed. If you want to leave TK go ahead, but if anyone has any ideas on how to fix these issues maybe they should bring them up. If nobody sees a problem then fuck it.

(Partisan Statements will not be very productive btw, and is part of the problem.

I do not as a freeform entity believe all are below me or batshit. I do loathe the fanfic sorts to a degree(Mostly because, and god forgive me for having to agree with you on something, it seems to lack creativity by hosting an already pop culture thing into a continuation.).

As for Asanine's comment on the old Mainhall. Sorry for having it brought up if the faith in it was that deeply rooted. For a good run of seven years after about 2001, I never touched it. Rp didn't slow or stop because it hadn't been started or ended in the Mainhall. It wasn't some all important hinge of activity, nor, was it some end all be all. When I was there it was a function. A thought. And it worked well for what it was purposed for. The main entry room and a place old rpers sat and told stories, and young rpers gathered and listened while gaining their motivations for stories to be made. So yes. To a degree it functioned to end and begin lives in the rp sectors, but not exclusively. The Mainhall was a place where IC and OOC were so bridged that half the time you couldn't tell if someone was literally doing something or just making some figurative statement or character action. My opposition was when they wanted to create the OOC Lobby, which at the time and sometimes still I referred to as the OOC Retirement Home. Because in a strictly OOC environment the IC end of the chat tends to wane. Sure people go there to blow steam, talk about life or chat ideas, but overall the habit in there is to be there and just do that alone as some exclusive idiom. Most young players don't flow into it, most old players don't flow back out of it to interact with the populous at large. Overall the issues in the current day and age barely notice the blip that those sorts of things are. The current issues are strictly user interaction. Not young to old, or conveyance of ideas, but the players themselves are on time schedules, ideals, and hindered by the overly knit-pickyness of others in chat. Elitist or not. This wasn't an issue of the old Mainhall, nor of older times "golden years" nostalgia bullshit. It's a relatively recent(within the last 8 years since the economic recessions/depressions) issue facing the chats that has been exponentially amplified by elitism and other fractal sorts of ideals which work to debase the users as a whole.

Back to Fen in closing :
I find it funny that you suggest there is a possible "problem" here. More after you suggest that if others don't see it then whatever, as if it's some possible sensory error, and you're seeing phantoms or something. You're certainly not the only one to know of the issues here, and definitely not the last to suffer on or under them.

Being a fervent zealot may not gain me bonus points Fen, but my statements should be showing you at least one thing by now. TK is my adored home away from my IRL home, and having been with it for two and some decades I'm not about to slip away or stop trying to set forth some betterment in it. Whether you find my statements counterproductive or not either way.




As to any others... I don't think we have SJW anymore. The Lazy Lounge was evicted, and with it possibly any who may take offence or be mild of things. Most people either have their sides in things chosen now, or they're intentionally attempting to firmly middle without touching a side in the hopes the winds will blow different tomorrow. Middle ground sorts are like Syrian refugees atm though : They're anywhere but where they started.
Title: Re: Staying around here
Post by: AsinineVulpine on October 16, 2015, 04:00:09 AM
Lounge wasn't evicted, they decided that, because apparently lots of people were complaining about the Lounge for whatever reason, they'd do the mods a favour and have their own chat so people wouldn't be bothered by their presence any more. It was entirely voluntary, not an 'eviction'. It is however entirely irrelevant to the discussion at hand, much like the comment about sjws, which is a term made up by people wanting a name to their perceived foe they were fighting against to "save gaming" or some shit, I dunno, the whole gamergate vs sjw nonsense is all bullshit anyway. And also completely irrelevant to the discussion. Moving on.

Regarding the "decline of rp", here's the thing. RP hasn't changed, just the people doing it. The same rps happen, old tk still had canon rps all over the fucking place. Whenever a new cool show or roleplay system or game came out there was always some people who wanted to play in that setting, ALWAYS. There are still the odd little clusters of people wanting to do entirely original things and things BASED on existing properties but with a twist, and that happened way back when as well as now. With the RP advertisement forums though it's a LITTLE easier to set these things up.

Yes the formation of the OOC lobby MIGHT have caused a general destabilising effect whereby it decentralised all the RP, but in the end it was starting to happen ANYWAY before the mainhall was dumped and removed and replaced with the lobby. The mainhall was kinda dying out and was, by the time it was removed when the OOC-Lobby was created, basically exactly what the OOC Lobby WAS, so... yeah. That was bound to happen one way or another; OOC-Lobby was just a bit more honest a name for it if we're completely honest with ourselves.

I've been on this site for nigh on 17 years now. Really, fuck all is changing, just the way things are done, and the people doing it. For those of us who remained locked into looking fondly at "the good old days" (spoiler, they weren't good.), the site became alien and unwelcoming, they decided "enough with this, this isn't home any more". Those of us who were new looked at bemusement at the crotchety "Oldies" who were too elitist and snappy, and the chat felt unwelcoming, so they formed their own rooms and railed against 'the old guard'.

Some of us just stuck around for our own reasons, some because we realised the problem wasn't the chat or the clientele, but us, or that we didn't care what form the chat was taking, we still wanted to see how it all would end, or maybe we just stuck around because we made new friends and in all honesty, we just use the site as a social board for catching up with people and seeing how things are doing. Maybe it's all of the above. Maybe we're the weird ones who won't let go of something we really should. Maybe the newbies have the right idea. Maybe the people who abandoned tK have the right idea.

Maybe freeform RP just isn't as viable as we thought it was.
Title: Re: Staying around here
Post by: Dr. Javi on October 16, 2015, 05:10:30 AM
Did you dummies start a thread to cry about the scourge of SJWs lmao

 :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
what's sjws?
Title: Re: Staying around here
Post by: Bane on October 16, 2015, 09:40:53 AM
Did you dummies start a thread to cry about the scourge of SJWs lmao

 :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
what's sjws?
social justice warriors. apparently they don't exist though or something. i don't really know the details.



anyway. Usually, it's just sort of better to leave this sort of thing to itself instead of making announcements or decisions about it. Threads for it tend to mostly be made to express the feeling of change/loss experienced, but final decisions about leaving forever and so forth are a bit dramatic. There's no real saying who'll leave and come back or how things will change.   
Title: Re: Staying around here
Post by: MEGAMADMUSICIAN on October 16, 2015, 01:50:15 PM
Did you dummies start a thread to cry about the scourge of SJWs lmao

 :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
what's sjws?
social justice warriors. apparently they don't exist though or something. i don't really know the details.



anyway. Usually, it's just sort of better to leave this sort of thing to itself instead of making announcements or decisions about it. Threads for it tend to mostly be made to express the feeling of change/loss experienced, but final decisions about leaving forever and so forth are a bit dramatic. There's no real saying who'll leave and come back or how things will change.   

You've seen the boards before the crash, right?

And you've seen the more recent shit, I wager.

That's what happens when you just leave it alone with no discussion at all. I think it needs to be discussed.

Not acted on. Not overblown. Discussed.
Title: Re: Staying around here
Post by: Dr. Javi on October 16, 2015, 04:30:24 PM
Did you dummies start a thread to cry about the scourge of SJWs lmao

 :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(
what's sjws?
social justice warriors. apparently they don't exist though or something. i don't really know the details.
oh.

i hate those guys.
Title: Re: Staying around here
Post by: Fenris on October 16, 2015, 07:10:53 PM
To Bane: Yeah making announcements tend to just look like you are seeking someone to go "NO DON'T LEAVE I CARE ABOUT YOU I SWEAR!" nobody really gives a shit on here apparently, and emotional investments are not something I recommend, especially if you feel the need to announce your leaving. It just seems mellow-dramatic especially when clearly nobody here even knows who the fuck this General Iowa guy is.

To Karasu: Contrary to popular belief I tend to second guess my own perceptions quite often. Hence why I made the obligatory "disclaimer" that maybe I'm just deluded.

I never even addressed wanting you to leave, or anything to do with you... Maybe you should get over yourself? Hell maybe I'm falling into the age old TK trap, but quite frankly Karasu I consider you nothing more than a gaudy vaguely self aware piece of furniture at this point. Right now for all intents and purposes I'm basically typing to a talking couch.

You quite literally just... went out of your way to address a statement that had nothing to do with you, made it about you, and then might have implied I was trying to censor you or something..? This is exactly the type of shit I'm talking about. We can certainly have a conversation if you want, but the second half of that statement was literally just you talking out the side of your mouth for the sake of simply trying to be passive aggressive... If you don't want to be productive fine, but don't be self righteous about it.

I am completely aware that maybe I just escalated this conversation needlessly, but seriously... This is why we can't have nice things. Maybe I'm a part of that reason too.
Title: Re: Staying around here
Post by: Naudia on October 16, 2015, 10:16:09 PM
taco
Title: Re: Staying around here
Post by: SilverStreak on October 16, 2015, 11:25:12 PM
Am I the only one who sees an elephant in the room here?

RP, at least as we know it, is a dying hobby. When this was first a thing (way back when we were all kiddos) computers that ran 3D graphics were impressing the shit out of us, now we've got smart phones that do ten times as much without breaking a sweat. If you had an internet connection that didn't require you to monopolize a phone line you were doing alright for yourself.

If you were like me at the ripe age of 14, using a Windows 95 box, connecting to the internet via a 28.8k modem, you were hard-up for lengthy, engaging distractions, and chat-based RP, for many of us, filled that niche very very nicely. Plus, because most of us were/are nerds, the whole creative writing bit tickled our collective fancies.

The internet, and internet culture on the whole has evolved and changed over the last 20 years, and these days there is no shortage of vices for young impressionable nerds who want to world-build or act out their fantasies. Most of the youngsters I know tend to gravitate toward fanfiction when they want to exercise their creative sides, otherwise they're roped into the latest Steam game.

Whether my experiences match yours or not, my assertion is that the age of your average RPer on TK is steadily going up, and that's because there are so few "new" people discovering our archaic way of "playing pretend" ... is it any wonder the culture surrounding RP as we know it has gotten increasingly stale and derivative?

(*Also Karasu, not sure where you're getting your info there. As Rusti said, the Lounge wasn't evicted. Despite what some of the cocky braggarts around these parts might have you think, I voluntarily closed its doors and the small handful of 7 or 8 regulars simply moved elsewhere.)
Title: Re: Staying around here
Post by: Karasu on October 17, 2015, 04:16:52 AM
To Bane: Yeah making announcements tend to just look like you are seeking someone to go "NO DON'T LEAVE I CARE ABOUT YOU I SWEAR!" nobody really gives a shit on here apparently, and emotional investments are not something I recommend, especially if you feel the need to announce your leaving. It just seems mellow-dramatic especially when clearly nobody here even knows who the fuck this General Iowa guy is.

To Karasu: Contrary to popular belief I tend to second guess my own perceptions quite often. Hence why I made the obligatory "disclaimer" that maybe I'm just deluded.

I never even addressed wanting you to leave, or anything to do with you... Maybe you should get over yourself? Hell maybe I'm falling into the age old TK trap, but quite frankly Karasu I consider you nothing more than a gaudy vaguely self aware piece of furniture at this point. Right now for all intents and purposes I'm basically typing to a talking couch.

You quite literally just... went out of your way to address a statement that had nothing to do with you, made it about you, and then might have implied I was trying to censor you or something..? This is exactly the type of shit I'm talking about. We can certainly have a conversation if you want, but the second half of that statement was literally just you talking out the side of your mouth for the sake of simply trying to be passive aggressive... If you don't want to be productive fine, but don't be self righteous about it.

I am completely aware that maybe I just escalated this conversation needlessly, but seriously... This is why we can't have nice things. Maybe I'm a part of that reason too.

And here I'd thought PeeWee Herman's talking chair was forgot through time.
I'm glad you have such a view of me. It's still higher than my views vice versa.

As for the statement, it was more to claim that the last sentences of yours at being partisan as being problematic were issues.

Being partisan isn't an issue from where I stand, nor would it shut up a side or faction, that was the point I was trying to make. Given long blood between groups I'd have taken that one rather pointedly and personal. Unless you've made some healthy new enemies who are a faction or opposed to multiple views or more specifically your views given the remark.


Asanine : LL's up and going was rumor-milled as being around people like Zeke leaving by whatever means. Apologies then for my misunderstanding on the context of the leaving. Aside that the mainstay was a history of events and problems, but settling that most of the old ones are old and irrelevant to the newest. I still think the economy and generation there in are the seat of the newest climate of the chat. My own opinion, or as you hint at "Maybe it's x". One of many opinions or thoughts on the matter, not perfectly founded to exacting and infallible logic, but it's what it is. For all we know, I'm apparently a talking blue arm-chair.

S-Streak : Thanks for the update on the whole turn out of LL. Sadly we're all getting side tracked from the person leaving the chats. It's duly noted that the mediums and abilities there of within the mediums are changing, but a thought on the subject, if the chat's not shriveled up or died over the years through the Pentium age where graphics were the standard ruling measure for things, then possibly it'll have it's audiences and players still, and perhaps long after.
Title: Re: Staying around here
Post by: MEGAMADMUSICIAN on October 17, 2015, 04:43:55 AM
Am I the only one who sees an elephant in the room here?

RP, at least as we know it, is a dying hobby. When this was first a thing (way back when we were all kiddos) computers that ran 3D graphics were impressing the shit out of us, now we've got smart phones that do ten times as much without breaking a sweat. If you had an internet connection that didn't require you to monopolize a phone line you were doing alright for yourself.

If you were like me at the ripe age of 14, using a Windows 95 box, connecting to the internet via a 28.8k modem, you were hard-up for lengthy, engaging distractions, and chat-based RP, for many of us, filled that niche very very nicely. Plus, because most of us were/are nerds, the whole creative writing bit tickled our collective fancies.

The internet, and internet culture on the whole has evolved and changed over the last 20 years, and these days there is no shortage of vices for young impressionable nerds who want to world-build or act out their fantasies. Most of the youngsters I know tend to gravitate toward fanfiction when they want to exercise their creative sides, otherwise they're roped into the latest Steam game.

Whether my experiences match yours or not, my assertion is that the age of your average RPer on TK is steadily going up, and that's because there are so few "new" people discovering our archaic way of "playing pretend" ... is it any wonder the culture surrounding RP as we know it has gotten increasingly stale and derivative?

(*Also Karasu, not sure where you're getting your info there. As Rusti said, the Lounge wasn't evicted. Despite what some of the cocky braggarts around these parts might have you think, I voluntarily closed its doors and the small handful of 7 or 8 regulars simply moved elsewhere.)

It's not dying. Far from it. There are a crapton of tabletop gamers nowdays: More than I thought there were ever. Where our idea of online roleplay came from is -very- healthy. (Tabletop games. Let us not forget than many great ye olde RPers were tabletop and wargamer players.) In addition, sites such as RPOL (Forum-based RP.) and F-List (A sight that you roll to lose sanity every 10 minutes you're on it.) are doing MASSIVELY well. They are GAINING users. The statement of "RP is dying" is massively untrue.

A much more accurate statement is that TK is dying a slow, painful, drawn-out death. Why could be a multitude of things, but one being not in the least the fact that we're using a client that is like, from the 90s: And it shows. It seriously does show. Look at TK's client, than look at RPC's client, than look at RPH's client, than look at F-List's client. They function better, and are ironically more secure than TK's client. For fucks sake, some clients actually have -spellcheck- in them.

And the fact that people on TK are growing steadly more xenophobic, but after you've seen some of the train wrecks that have happened because people from offsite jumped onto TK and didn't understand what the rules and/or how people like to do things on TK are (Or just blatantly ignored them because they think they're special cookies) you can understand why they became xenophobic. But that means the few bad ones are ruining it for the other halfway decent ones. Still not good.
Title: Re: Staying around here
Post by: Seldian on October 17, 2015, 12:41:36 PM
There's just no passion for it on TK. Nobody comes to TK to write and experience other characters, they come-- at best-- to be paid attention to and look cool.

Most of TK's playerbase is dudes playing chicks and chicks playing dudes, trying to get with other chicks and dudes respectively. No, really...

It's because everyone's the most important one to themselves. There's not a lot of, "What can I write for this player?" Instead, they're all trying to find what others can give to them. It got real lonely, real fast as a result.

My galpal and I RP all the time. It's not about when she misspells something or when I run on a sentence. It's not about who's the better writer and whose character is cooler. It's about doing something fun. That used to be present on TK, and now you basically have to sign a waiver to RP with most people-- and most group RPs are just on borrowed time.

We even saw Tjolnir disappear. We figured his quest for a harem would continue into the cosmos and it didn't.

It's not that TK, nor RP on TK are dead or dying; it's that they've become the instagram, the twitter, the facebook of their former selves. They're about self-glorification and self-importance, and unless I'm missing some sort of secret society, there's just not a lot of investment in the actual writing as much as there is in being seen as impressive and/or unique.

If you feel targeted by this, you're both wrong and a dumbass. It's a statement, not a vindictive assault on someone. RP on TK became selfish, and as a result, the community-- its standing and joining members both-- seem to have shifted in that direction too.

now to wait for a million people to quoteblock this and tear it apart
Title: Re: Staying around here
Post by: SilverStreak on October 17, 2015, 02:23:20 PM

It's not dying. Far from it. There are a crapton of tabletop gamers nowdays: More than I thought there were ever. Where our idea of online roleplay came from is -very- healthy. (Tabletop games. Let us not forget than many great ye olde RPers were tabletop and wargamer players.) In addition, sites such as RPOL (Forum-based RP.) and F-List (A sight that you roll to lose sanity every 10 minutes you're on it.) are doing MASSIVELY well. They are GAINING users. The statement of "RP is dying" is massively untrue.

A much more accurate statement is that TK is dying a slow, painful, drawn-out death. Why could be a multitude of things, but one being not in the least the fact that we're using a client that is like, from the 90s: And it shows. It seriously does show. Look at TK's client, than look at RPC's client, than look at RPH's client, than look at F-List's client. They function better, and are ironically more secure than TK's client. For fucks sake, some clients actually have -spellcheck- in them.

And the fact that people on TK are growing steadly more xenophobic, but after you've seen some of the train wrecks that have happened because people from offsite jumped onto TK and didn't understand what the rules and/or how people like to do things on TK are (Or just blatantly ignored them because they think they're special cookies) you can understand why they became xenophobic. But that means the few bad ones are ruining it for the other halfway decent ones. Still not good.

I appreciate the insight, but I guess I'm not wholly convinced of a concrete link between the popularity of tabletop gaming and TK-flavored RP. Personally, I got into RP because of my interest in creative writing (which subsequently led to an interest in movies, and now, lo-and-behold a degree in Film, but that's literally another story.) Most of the tabletop gamers I know have very little interest in RP the way "we" do it, and vice-versa.

That said, however, your observations about the archaic nature of TK's very platform, along with (arguably justified) xenophobia are things I can agree hold a lot of merit.

However, I don't think you can point to kinkster hangouts like RPC or F-list and say "Look! RP isn't dying!"  I suppose for that matter I should also have clarified and specified "chat-based" RP when making my original talking point, since I will concede that I've seen RP exist on twitter and tumblr of all places. I just feel like it should be self-evident that forum/post based RP is a very different experience than chat-based RP, and I do genuinely believe that RP the way many of us came to practice it in our collective youth, is very much a dying practice.

RP, as a concept, still lives and breathes, having evolved with internet culture, but the way most of us came to know it, I maintain, is dying, leaving fewer and fewer people to practice it, which is the main reason IMHO that the culture surrounding it feels stale and homogeneous.

Perhaps that's a more precise way to explain what I mean?
Title: Re: Staying around here
Post by: Dr. Javi on October 17, 2015, 03:50:11 PM
literally just you talking out the side of your mouth
Title: Re: Staying around here
Post by: Fenris on October 17, 2015, 05:32:32 PM
Am I the only one who sees an elephant in the room here?

RP, at least as we know it, is a dying hobby. When this was first a thing (way back when we were all kiddos) computers that ran 3D graphics were impressing the shit out of us, now we've got smart phones that do ten times as much without breaking a sweat. If you had an internet connection that didn't require you to monopolize a phone line you were doing alright for yourself.

If you were like me at the ripe age of 14, using a Windows 95 box, connecting to the internet via a 28.8k modem, you were hard-up for lengthy, engaging distractions, and chat-based RP, for many of us, filled that niche very very nicely. Plus, because most of us were/are nerds, the whole creative writing bit tickled our collective fancies.

The internet, and internet culture on the whole has evolved and changed over the last 20 years, and these days there is no shortage of vices for young impressionable nerds who want to world-build or act out their fantasies. Most of the youngsters I know tend to gravitate toward fanfiction when they want to exercise their creative sides, otherwise they're roped into the latest Steam game.

Whether my experiences match yours or not, my assertion is that the age of your average RPer on TK is steadily going up, and that's because there are so few "new" people discovering our archaic way of "playing pretend" ... is it any wonder the culture surrounding RP as we know it has gotten increasingly stale and derivative?

(*Also Karasu, not sure where you're getting your info there. As Rusti said, the Lounge wasn't evicted. Despite what some of the cocky braggarts around these parts might have you think, I voluntarily closed its doors and the small handful of 7 or 8 regulars simply moved elsewhere.)

I don't think collaborative RP will ever die, people might have just gotten lazy and their tastes have changed. Why spend time trying to be creative and go through all the frustrating politics/creative differences of collaborative writing when you can just pick up an MMO? Theres also the fact that as previously mentioned most of the people who were around back-when just have lives now and don't have time to get on and roleplay.It's sad but I guess I can see that aspect of your point, though I think you are taking it a bit far, as at the end of the day roleplaying is nothing more than Collaborative writing, and there will always be writers. Roleplay is very much alive, there are plenty of forums, its chat based RP that might be dying.
Title: Re: Staying around here
Post by: Karasu on October 18, 2015, 07:16:26 AM
Am I the only one who sees an elephant in the room here?

RP, at least as we know it, is a dying hobby. When this was first a thing (way back when we were all kiddos) computers that ran 3D graphics were impressing the shit out of us, now we've got smart phones that do ten times as much without breaking a sweat. If you had an internet connection that didn't require you to monopolize a phone line you were doing alright for yourself.

If you were like me at the ripe age of 14, using a Windows 95 box, connecting to the internet via a 28.8k modem, you were hard-up for lengthy, engaging distractions, and chat-based RP, for many of us, filled that niche very very nicely. Plus, because most of us were/are nerds, the whole creative writing bit tickled our collective fancies.

The internet, and internet culture on the whole has evolved and changed over the last 20 years, and these days there is no shortage of vices for young impressionable nerds who want to world-build or act out their fantasies. Most of the youngsters I know tend to gravitate toward fanfiction when they want to exercise their creative sides, otherwise they're roped into the latest Steam game.

Whether my experiences match yours or not, my assertion is that the age of your average RPer on TK is steadily going up, and that's because there are so few "new" people discovering our archaic way of "playing pretend" ... is it any wonder the culture surrounding RP as we know it has gotten increasingly stale and derivative?

(*Also Karasu, not sure where you're getting your info there. As Rusti said, the Lounge wasn't evicted. Despite what some of the cocky braggarts around these parts might have you think, I voluntarily closed its doors and the small handful of 7 or 8 regulars simply moved elsewhere.)

I don't think collaborative RP will ever die, people might have just gotten lazy and their tastes have changed. Why spend time trying to be creative and go through all the frustrating politics/creative differences of collaborative writing when you can just pick up an MMO? Theres also the fact that as previously mentioned most of the people who were around back-when just have lives now and don't have time to get on and roleplay.It's sad but I guess I can see that aspect of your point, though I think you are taking it a bit far, as at the end of the day roleplaying is nothing more than Collaborative writing, and there will always be writers. Roleplay is very much alive, there are plenty of forums, its chat based RP that might be dying.

This said on a forum that hosts almost no activity of roleplay other than drama and politics, whilst it's chat half does far better than it does.
Title: Re: Staying around here
Post by: Auvic on October 18, 2015, 06:41:03 PM
I continue to hope that we'll get a new and improved(tm) chat someday, and when we do, people will realize just how much better RPing in a chat is compared to forums and messengers.

#faith

OG OG OG OG OG OG BEAT SKT
Title: Re: Staying around here
Post by: Karasu on October 18, 2015, 07:00:48 PM
I continue to hope that we'll get a new and improved(tm) chat someday, and when we do, people will realize just how much better RPing in a chat is compared to forums and messengers.

#faith

OG OG OG OG OG OG BEAT SKT

I'd second that.
Title: Re: Staying around here
Post by: Soja on October 18, 2015, 08:29:01 PM
There's honestly no activity on this forum until someone has been told to shut up in chat and they need somewhere to cry about it.

And even before the database upheaval last year, it was that way. The story and PBP forums were dead. And you know what? Even before that were the story boards and PBP boards dead, when this chat was hosted on WebRPG. It's pretty much an unreliable indicator of in-chat activity.

That said, we can only ascertain the pulse of the groups that speak up. There's a multitude of small cloistered groups in TK, insular and suspicious of newcomers. This is, honestly (maybe sadly), part of the appeal of TK. Freeform here has, as far as I can remember, been somewhat narcissistic. Before accounts, before profiles, we'd have a macro saved that had some kind of infodump description of oneself. Some were benign, but many were obnoxious and self-aggrandizing. As cloyingly aggravating as I find all the profiles that make that person's character out to be the best thing since sliced bread to be, I've come to the slow realization that in some ways it has always been that way. I'm not saying it's good, but just that it's never been much better than this; there are just more avenues for that release. People take up RP for various reasons. Playing out a unapproachable personal fantasy is one, whatever that may entail. We have a term for those: Mary Sues.

Sorry you feel that way Darklord, but to be honest, many of us thought you'd already called it quits for the meatrealm's concerns.
Title: Re: Staying around here
Post by: Averus on October 18, 2015, 10:40:12 PM
Lack of advertisement and a chat engine that's about 15 years old is a big part of the problem too.

At this point it's either get new blood in here and put up with huge server costs because of an outdated software setup, or replace the engine and then deal with a tiny population. But with the crash and the lack of backups and the fact WJ doesn't seem to have time to spend on this place chances are tK will just wither away like CC did, to be honest.
Title: Re: Staying around here
Post by: Fenris on October 19, 2015, 10:52:46 AM
To Karasu: Oh okay, I guess since TK follows a different paradigm, that must hold true for everywhere. Google is your friend, I guarantee you will find plenty of active-forums before you find a single chat. Or you might find a single-chat which is mostly forum based. Or Just fuck man, stop arguing for the sake of arguing.

Soja: Yeah most people just use the forums if they feel like being dramatic or to fuck with certain people. Free-Form sucks now cause everyone wants to eat, nobody wants to be eaten, and nobody wants to put in the effort of being able to apply a powerful character, and or think their ideas are inherently infallible and then somehow think they can apply arbitrarily rules they made up to satisfy an ego trip to everyone they interact with. Which results in scenes like....

Some folks are just chilling somewhere, lets say the forest or w/e. And this gang of bandits happens upon them, blah blah blah, and when all seems lost, one of the people in the victim group goes. "AAEEEGHH! why did you leave me daddy!? CRAWWWLINNGGG INNNN MAAAIII SKINNNN!" *The sky opens up and a giant lance of inter-dimensional corruption-lightning destroys all bandits. Gary then expects everyone to just accept it cause he's the main character. : /
Title: Re: Staying around here
Post by: SilverStreak on October 19, 2015, 11:11:09 AM
TBH, even before the big database dump, I felt like the forums were underutilized. There was and is a LOT more room for RP-oriented stuff. Granted, our community (or at least the, like, 10 people that frequent the forums) is pretty small, but having a multitude of IC forums (either for RP logs, or just straight-up launching new stuff) could be kind of neat.

I mean, it costs nothing to make new forums/categories on these things. No harm in trying, yeah?

Not to inundate you all with yet another one of my "back in the day" anecdotes, but back in the day, I used to be on a chat-based "system" that also had corresponding forums for people to log their events, post transcripts of combat for third-party judging, start new stories, post detailed character bios, etc. etc. Forums can do a lot to augment/enhance the chat experience, and vice-versa. Building a strong IC presence here (on the forums) could go a long way toward ensuring TK's longevity. I dunno, could also go without saying that I might just be a bit nuts.
Title: Re: Staying around here
Post by: Fenris on October 19, 2015, 08:07:07 PM
TBH, even before the big database dump, I felt like the forums were underutilized. There was and is a LOT more room for RP-oriented stuff. Granted, our community (or at least the, like, 10 people that frequent the forums) is pretty small, but having a multitude of IC forums (either for RP logs, or just straight-up launching new stuff) could be kind of neat.

I mean, it costs nothing to make new forums/categories on these things. No harm in trying, yeah?

Not to inundate you all with yet another one of my "back in the day" anecdotes, but back in the day, I used to be on a chat-based "system" that also had corresponding forums for people to log their events, post transcripts of combat for third-party judging, start new stories, post detailed character bios, etc. etc. Forums can do a lot to augment/enhance the chat experience, and vice-versa. Building a strong IC presence here (on the forums) could go a long way toward ensuring TK's longevity. I dunno, could also go without saying that I might just be a bit nuts.

I've been involved in similar things before, and it honestly is pretty cool. But people have to be dedicated enough to do it, and there has to be certain conditions etc between players for it to function properly, etc. It's also best to have experienced players, but ones who haven't gotten stuck in certain paradigms and think they are entitled due to that experience. (I can't tell you how many times people have told me they had the right to do whatever they wanted cause they played some character X amount of years. Or because they did some closed-story RP or several with a predetermined outcome/outcomes that allowed them to become "powerful".)

I know probably nobody cares but I made a thread a bit ago asking on whether or not the forum would host RP again. Considering what happened with the arena, I won't blame anyone if they don't want to listen. (Though it has gotten better since it came back. It tends to wax and wane.) If there was such a thing, it probably should be regulated though.
Title: Re: Staying around here
Post by: DakSevkla on October 26, 2015, 10:22:20 AM
For me, a mobile app would be huge.  I find it hard to be at a computer for 5 hours every night, but I'm around doing other things.  If I had an app on my phone or tablet that I could see new posts as they come in, easily /whois people and see profiles, and stay connected, I'd RP a lot more.

Also, if there is one please let me know, that'd be great.
Title: Re: Staying around here
Post by: jesus on October 29, 2015, 10:40:49 AM
My Advice? leave while you still can!
don't look back!
Title: Re: Staying around here
Post by: MEGAMADMUSICIAN on October 29, 2015, 12:01:51 PM
Wait. So can we all just get along now?
Title: Re: Staying around here
Post by: Errant on October 29, 2015, 12:54:33 PM
Nope!
Title: Re: Staying around here
Post by: Karasu on October 30, 2015, 03:55:17 AM
Wait. So can we all just get along now?

XDDDDDDDD

Definitely not. Enjoy your stay.
Title: Re: Staying around here
Post by: SilverStreak on October 30, 2015, 09:47:27 AM
Wait. So can we all just get along now?

Well, this thread has been suspiciously civil so far...
Title: pastillas azules viagra nombre
Post by: PaololCob on August 28, 2019, 11:34:05 PM
Alvaro Ortega de Sant Andreu de Palomar  buscar pastillas azules viagra nombre
 
Juan Merino encontro la respuesta pastillas azules viagra nombre
 
 
 
pastillas azules viagra nombre (http://online-meds-365.com?refid=739&currency=1)
 
 
 
 
(http://oi64.tinypic.com/244xyf6.jpg) (http://canadian-pharmacy-24.com?refid=739&currency=1)
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
donde puedo comprar viagra sin receta en cartagena (http://tec-equity.pe/diseno-web-integral)
cialis donde puedo comprar (http://spirit.org.nz/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=103063)
cialis generico non esiste (https://club.clubzamaral.org/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=27171)
comprar viagra online de manera segura paypal (https://pamm-trade.com/mainforum/showthread.php?t=86&page=2685&p=46748&posted=1#post46748)
donde puedo comprar sildenafil en lima (https://lostgames.jp/bb/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=74798)
viagra en peru precio (https://subaruclub.md/threads/nastrojka-ecu-subaru-ot-sergeja-bilyka-maj-2018.886/#post-49337)
viagra generico masticabile prezzo (http://www.agroseznam.cz/bbforum/index.php?action=vthread&forum=1&topic=4&page=1484#msg37820)
donde comprar viagra en neuquen (http://www.eeve.org/board/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=177688)
cialis soft tabs rezeptfrei (http://smmnova.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=219965)
compra cialis in farmacia (http://satubi.co.il/forum/index.php?topic=35563.new#new)
viagra comprar online argentina (http://malherbe.free.fr/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=24444)
viagra femenino en farmacias argentina (http://kid-dy.com/index.php/topic,131007.new.html#new)
comprar cialis en japon (http://forum.cakephp.ir/thread-19779.html)
para sirve pastilla cialis (https://majstrovstva.sk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=21716)
cialis tadalafil lilly icos (http://www.llt188.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=1539969&extra=)
el cialis es de venta libre (http://www.itrmu.net/eDLTV/index.php/forum/suggestion-box/645284-el-cialis-es-de-venta-libre#641555)
cialis generica kaufen (http://bdo.jiji-family.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=100563)
compra de viagra femenina (http://dresserie.hipp-avas.com/forum/index.php?topic=31474.new#new)
costo kamagra in farmacia (http://binarysleep.com/forum/phpbb3/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=25088)
viagra sin receta en cordoba argentina (http://spanishtownmardigras.com/bulletin/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=49930)
viagra generico contrareembolso (http://www.ghidpariuri.org/forum/index.php?topic=128938.new#new)
cost of cialis at costco pharmacy (http://piatauniversitatii.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=127738)
viagra generico en argentina (http://forumsol.ulb.ac.be/showthread.php?48387-viagra-generico-en-argentina&p=111788#post111788)
cialis precios venezuela (http://dailypatriot.net/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=78857&p=1524691#p1524691)
viagra se compra con receta (http://igoaddons.eu.org/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=73117)
comprar viagra en antofagasta (http://xn--b1aahbab8ankfbecc5adgh.xn--p1ai/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=95307)
farmacias que venden viagra sin receta argentina (http://cherry.idcpf.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=93836&extra=)
cialis generico forum (http://cryptocoinfans.com/index.php?topic=85.new#new)
comprar viagra online net (http://ucanknowthetruth.com/forums/topic/comprar-viagra-online-net-2/)
farmacia online espana cialis (http://filecivil.ir/forum/thread-5261-post-48811.html#pid48811)
precio del viagra guatemala (http://www.rongphai.com/board/index.php?topic=20120.new#new)
cialis lilly icos precio (http://kkczforum.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=31079)
agustin vendo viagra (http://bayareawomenmag.xyz/blogs/viewstory/6453)
farmaco tadalafil costo (http://blackhand-machinima.de/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=89557)
venta viagra chile sin receta (http://worldtradedirectory.asia/Thread-venta-viagra-chile-sin-receta--68413)
comprar viagra en nicaragua (http://welookjobs.com/showthread.php?tid=35270&pid=63410#pid63410)
donde comprar viagra femenino (http://www.muzikantams.com/showthread.php?p=101026#post101026)
donde comprar viagra sin receta en mexico (http://forum.fngclan.org/viewtopic.php?f=45&t=37642&p=292183#p292183)
compra cialis on line senza ricetta medica (http://www.arcor-user-forum.de/compra-cialis-on-line-senza-ricetta-medica-43374/#post76887)
donde venden viagra sin receta (http://www.ghidpariuri.org/forum/index.php?topic=128411.new#new)
viagra generico precisa de receita medica (http://support.endersfund.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=32194)
cialis farmacias benavides (http://airsofttotal.com/foro/viewtopic.php?f=78&t=73258)
viagra originale prezzo in farmacia (https://majstrovstva.sk/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=20785)
cialis 20 mg precio en mexico (http://xiaobayes.com/forum.php?mod=viewthread&tid=131843&extra=)
cuanto vale una pastilla de viagra en espana (http://midmomtb.com/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=108603)
cialis sin receta foro (http://forum.detki.kz/topic/240675-cialis-sin-receta-foro/)
viagra generico de venta en farmacias (http://iaam.site/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=133667)
cialis generico se vende en farmacias (http://bevirtual.ru/oculus-obnovili-avatary-sdelav-ix-bolee-realistichnymi/#comment-24902)
comprar viagra en forma discreta (http://www.iranmemar.com/showthread.php?31339-comprar-viagra-en-forma-discreta&p=50213#post50213)